Podcast Alert: David Cipullo – Tigertail

David Cipullo: [00:00:00] No one ever knows when the timing’s right to make that leap. There never is an ideal time, but you have to make that leap at some time, and right now it just feels like it is the right time. The way that global sports sits today and what we’re offering, it seems to be the right timing for us. Time will tell.

AJ Maestas: Hello and welcome to the Navigating Sports Business podcast. I’m your host, AJ Maestes, founder of Navigate a data-driven consulting firm, guiding major strategies and decisions in sports and entertainment. We started this podcast hoping to share the interesting stories and experiences of the amazing people we get to work with at navigate.

And even though they’re visionaries and famous, in many instances, their true stories aren’t often heard, since they’re not on the playing field. Our hope is [00:01:00] you get to know them better and learn from them as we have.

Before I bring David Capullo on here, I just couldn’t resist giving a quick summary of this because I think it’s really worth listening to the end here. Uh, he finishes our conversation with his playbook on how to grow a brand globally and the key sort of four steps in which one can achieve that. He’s one of the few people on planet Earth here that knows the art and science of getting that done so he is worth listening to. Before that, we get into his time in England working with the Liverpool football Club. And his 11 years at In Front in Switzerland, working with all kinds of properties all over the world that ultimately brought him back here to the US to start his new advisory Tiger Tale.

And if you don’t know David Cipullo, he’s one of the best people out there. He’s just such a kind person. He’s top 10 most helpful people I’ve ever met in my life, at the top of the list in sports. He’s just so helpful and selfless in what he does for others. I hope and believe that you’ll get [00:02:00] that sense as well as you listen to our conversation.

Today, I am so happy to be joined by David Cipullo of Tigertail Advisory. A long time and close friend. How you doing, David?

David Cipullo: I’m wonderful. I’m great. How are you doing, aj?

AJ Maestas: Good. Good. I’m, I’m excellent. It’s good to see your face here. How was World Cup? I know you just got back.

David Cipullo: It was amazing. Take away any of the pre-World Cup challenges and, and the things that people are objecting to. From a pure sports event, it was amazing. Everything operated well. The venues were beautiful, the city was beautiful, very hospitable, and you couldn’t ask for a better final.

AJ Maestas: And in hindsight, do you think it was the right thing to be in Qatar?

David Cipullo: Well, probably not. I appreciate the honesty. Probably was not the right thing. But that goes in down a whole different kettle of worms as to what is the right thing, [00:03:00] should you be spreading the game to different locations and then taken into account all the things that everybody just watched on Netflix and the FIFA scandals and things like that. But from a pure sporting event, it was incredible.

AJ Maestas: I’m so glad to hear that. As you know, I considered going and it just, Uh, you know, I’m thrilled. I watched the game on tv. It was unbelievable. It was just so fun. It was, it was a great experience and I’m a big fan of building bridges, you know, to these places that other people might not feel comfortable going. You know, bridges versus walls, right? Is the way to move these places into the 21st century. And you know, and if you believe that western culture and stuff like that is worthy of exporting, that is a better way to do it. But I don’t love that people can bribe their way into getting games and things like that, so mixed emotions.

David Cipullo: Absolutely. And you know, I think we probably can go down this rabbit hole in a little while, but I think that the bribery and things, you’ll see different areas of gray in a lot of this. I’m not saying this one is good or bad, but there’s areas of gray in the [00:04:00] international sports world.

AJ Maestas: Well, you know that much better than me, which is our, one of our key topics for today. So I’m excited to dive in. Do you remember how we first met?

David Cipullo: A Thai restaurant in Chicago? We went to lunch.

AJ Maestas: Wow. Good memory. I’m so impressed. Uh, for, for those who aren’t friends with either of us, you know, we’ve known each other a long time. We shared an alleyway in Chicago back in the day before David went on this global adventure, spent 14 years in the UK and Switzerland. Do you mind telling me what that’s like? You know, having grown up a boy in Pittsburgh, all American, your wife’s from Jersey and then spending, you know, all of your kids early years and, and 14 in total overseas, did it change your life world perspective?

David Cipullo: Well, definitely, on a personal and professional level. I think personally it was an amazing adventure that I was able to start with my wife. We started in November, 2007. We went on a trek around Europe and we were just, Surely looking for jobs. I knocked on the doors of 44 different agencies, teams, broadcasters, et [00:05:00] cetera, and just said, I’m here. Really just said I’d love to have a discussion. Nobody was interviewing for a specific role at the end of that 30 day trip. I get a last minute call from a head hunter and the head hunter says, you want to go to Liverpool for a final interview? And I said, sure. No clue what Liverpool was, where it was, or anything else. My wife headed home and it’s one of those sliding doors, moments where I ultimately had three offers, one in Dubai, one in London, and one in Liverpool. And the ironic part is, When my wife went home and I ended up, uh, staying for the interview, I was walking around Liverpool for the first hour and I remember going to a payphone using the 40 digit numbers that you had to do for international calls. And I told her, there is no way in hell we’re coming here. And, uh, ironically, we end up…

AJ Maestas: A lot of people have had that feeling about Liverpool the city.

David Cipullo: So it started a long journey of 14 years and, you know, it helps shape the character and what you’re [00:06:00] doing as a person and what, the way you view the world and it was a great ride. Fast forward the 14 years and you’re coming back to the US with three kids, all going to German school, friendships, travels, et cetera from around the world. And it’s hard not to impact you. It’s been a great journey.

AJ Maestas: Yeah, I loved seeing your kids come and assimilate back with the United States, you know, having learned all these life experiences or not known any different, right? All the kids had done nothing but study in German in school, right? And I think Tate to this day still has a smidge of an accent. Sometimes they’ll say, dare, but, what a cool thing. No regrets?

David Cipullo: No regrets at all. No regrets. It also took me down a path professionally. You know, it’s a, it’s a rough start. I remember going into Liverpool and they used to always just make fun of the Americans. They would say, oh, who are you gonna reach out to? And peel back the onion. And, um, it is what it is. And they would just make fun of us constantly for our cliches that we would use. Through 14 years of global travels to countries around the [00:07:00] world, you’re not an expert everywhere, but you can’t read it. You can’t watch it, you can’t learn it through just talking to somebody. You have to live it and without living it, it’s impossible to get that experience.

AJ Maestas: I agree. And, and I think I feel like travel’s the greatest teacher I’ve had in my life you know, it’s a priority for me and I think you know that, but what a cool thing to do. You can correct me if this memory is wrong, but I remember this SBJ article coming out talking about Americans, you know, these expats going over to the EPL and I remember Tom Fox was a part of the article, but I swear your mug was the front face of the article. And, and looking back at it now, to your point right, payphone, I mean, turn back the clock. That was a bit of a trend setter, right? I mean, you were on the front edge of this, correct?

David Cipullo: Yeah, there were a bunch and guys ahead of me, like Jeff Slack and you know, several others that went before, but I think. Right around 2000 8, 9, 10 is when people started to go, let’s say, more proactively abroad. Now it’s almost commonplace, but there are still a lot of hurdles as people try to acclimate to different [00:08:00] cultures and, and business practices around the world. But I, I’d say somewhere around 2010 is when it started to really pick up.

AJ Maestas: If you’ll humor me on this just for a second, I have this memory. You were kind enough to bring me along on a meeting at one point, and we were talking about what it’s like to sell over there. And this is when the front office, you told me something like there’s a dozen people in the front office, right? And this time in the US there’d be 150 people in a sports team in the front office. And you told me something along the lines of, well, what’s selling like here, David? And you basically say, well, you know, I will call a brand and sort of say, You know, are you familiar with the Liverpool football Club?

The answer is yes, of course. You know, one of the big four at the time and all this kind of stuff. And, you’d say, well, have you ever thought about ways that it could elevate your brand? And you could do business, you know, in conjunction with Liverpool? And the person would say, like, almost a hundred percent of the time, be like, very interesting. Let’s talk. Whereas in the US you know, that line would get you like a, okay, I’m being pitched no, goodbye. So correct me, fix that history because wasn’t there just a five, six corporate partners. Teeny front office. [00:09:00] What was it really like?

David Cipullo: Well, when we started, it was very domestic, very local. Actually, I wouldn’t even call it domestic. It was very local, and they focused on the Liverpool market, and then American owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillette come in. They had their troubles with the Liverpool fans. Overall, they set up a business structure that led the way for Fenway, who’s doing an incredible job of growing Liverpool, growing the finances, and having success on the pitch. But to be fair to Tom and George, they did an incredible job of setting up the infrastructure there. They just didn’t do too well with understanding the culture and making the fans happy with what they were doing, and there were not many partners when we started. We grew that and we grew that on an international basis.

We went to China, we went to the Middle East, we went to Southeast Asia, and we started recruiting global partners, and that did not exist at Liverpool before. I’d say Manu was ahead of the curve a little bit on that, even Arsenal and Chelsea to a degree, but Liverpool [00:10:00] wasn’t there in 2008, and it started to grow pretty quickly from there. And now Fenway’s just blown it out of the water as you see their recent valuations.

AJ Maestas: Yeah. Well, 2023 here in the US might feel and look a lot like 2008 over there in England. But we’ll, we’ll get back to that later because it, you know, the race is on right to grow your brand and, revenue globally.

But before we get there, before launching Tiger Tale, which we’ll get into that as well, you spent 11 years at Infront. Can you explain that business for, for those of us who may not be familiar,

David Cipullo: Sure Infront sports and media based in Zoos, Switzerland, outside of Zurich. Very big agency, not that well known in the US cause there aren’t too many properties outside of the winter sports. But it is a global company. It’s a company that focused on four areas, media rights sales, to broadcasters on behalf of properties, global sponsorship sales, TV production. So everything that you’re watching on the World Cup recently is the production of HBS or Host broadcast services, which is a subsidiary of [00:11:00] Infront. And partnered with FIFA. And a digital arm that started to grow all digital activations for all the properties that we represented. Infront maybe to compare, it would be almost like the collegiate model here with Learfield or IMG, where you go in and traditionally do a buyout on a long term and you hope to grow that through growing media sales sponsorship, adding digital services, developing production standards, things like that, and you hope to grow the revenues over a long period. You hope to assign a 5, 10, 15 year deal. And it’s very similar to the collegiate model. The nice part about Infront was the leadership was several McKinsey executives. So you didn’t come in and you didn’t have, let’s say, the sports mentality. It was all about business. We found a way to make profit from curling and luge and small niche sports like that, that were all profit centers, but they’re not necessarily the home runs.

I would also equate that to [00:12:00] a Learfield back 10, 15 years ago, where they weren’t necessarily going after the Michigans. They were going after the tier two and tier three schools and making profit from it. So it was a really interesting model. It’s changing now with sports equity. Private equity coming into the sports space, but it was usually a buyout model. And my role there initially started as similar to NBA Timbo. It was a best practices unit for sponsorship sales, media rights, digital fan engagement. And we did that across all of our 60 plus properties and we would look at that practice.

AJ Maestas: And some of those properties, by the way, like a bunch of Premier League football clubs right across the European countries and beyond, like how many big time football clubs would you bring deals to?

David Cipullo: Well, we had a lot in the Bundes League. And that would range depending upon who’s relegated and who stays up. But anywhere from three to eight Bundes league clubs, we would represent, the Italian League, Syria, and we would have anywhere from [00:13:00] eight to 14. Italian clubs. We expanded into France during that period and represented a few there.

AJ Maestas: Well, we at Navigate got to work with you something recently, regarding FINA’s future multimedia rights, FINA now being World Aquatics, but think of anything amateur Olympic related to the water, you know, swimming, diving, et cetera. Water polo. Can you, and, and I was shocked by how much I learned from you and the process on their rights. Can you educate our listeners on some of these key differences about doing business around the world versus in the US as far as media and multimedia rights?

David Cipullo: If you look at media rights sales, N B A might be somewhere around 18, 19% coming internationally. The rest of the US brands are less than 10%, some down to one or 2% coming from international revenues.

You take Laga, the Spanish League or Premier League, and you’re closer to 40% international. And so there’s a big difference on where your revenues are coming from and that leads to some differences in how that relationship plays out. [00:14:00] Same thing with federations. You know, we talk about FINA and others, these federations, they’re not relying on one market and all the revenue coming from there.

They’re looking at 10 to 20 key markets, and they’re trying to distribute to 150 or 200 markets around the world. When they’re broadcasting their world championships for the US leagues, they’re trying to keep their core broadcasters happy. And it leads to a partnership, so the NFL and their broadcasters.

It’s a genuine partnership to develop the N F NFL to develop football. And you see that in the broadcast, there’s high quality. On the downside of that, they don’t necessarily cover the sport properly. I mean, it’s pretty evident by somebody like ESPN. Ronaldo says he’s leaving Manu, and it’s not in the top 10 stories.

It doesn’t even get in the top 10 stories. The biggest athlete in the world, on the biggest club in the world, and it’s not even listed on, on their site. So you’re not covering it properly, [00:15:00] that’s not journalism. And, so cause they’re not carrying the Premier League, they’re not tracking that. So internationally, the broadcasters aren’t as much in a cooperation, but they do cover with journalistic integrity.

So there’s good and bad to that. I’d say that that’s a big difference on the media side. Also the ability to sell internationally. You have to hire external agencies like in front or IMG or Sport Five to go sell that because you don’t have the resources to have relationships to 200 broadcasters around the world. So that changes the media landscape On the sponsorship, it’s completely different as well. You know, there’s been the saying in the US for 20 years now, we’re not selling spots and dots, or we’re not selling billboards. It goes much deeper and it does, and the US is a more mature sponsorship market for that.

However, it doesn’t make it right for every property. A federation that has a world championship. They’re selling TV exposure. [00:16:00] They’re selling branding around the world because you are getting great exposure in 150 countries. You are not buying the local community or CSR program. You’re buying into global visibility and awareness.

In Asia, you’re trying to reach 49 countries and there’s 2300 different languages across Asia. Let’s call ’em 15 common languages, but you need to reach all of them and you need to reach them with a message. And sports is a great platform to do that. Same thing for Europe. You’re trying to reach 750 million, but you need to do it in German, French, Italian, Spanish, Polish, English, and there’s a big difference. When we did the Liverpool Standard Chartered deal. They were focused on associating with a great brand. That was number one, and that’s why they chose Liverpool, but they wanted to reach the Asian market and bring their services to Asia. And they felt that Premier League was a great way to do that. How about that?

AJ Maestas: A London bank puts their name on a Liverpool Jersey [00:17:00] to move their business in Asia. It’s not the same as US Common now, but yeah, pretty incredible for that time. That was 2010 ish, right?

David Cipullo: Yeah. Yep. 2010. Yep.

AJ Maestas: If I could stick with just Infront just a little bit. I think it was really interesting that, you’re acquired by the Wanda Group and the wealthiest man in China at the time.

And then you went on to spend a bunch of time, I think about a week a month in Asia for the last couple years working there. Everyone realizes right, almost half the world’s populations is in Asia. You see the compound annual growth rate of their economies. You see so much potential, the rising middle class.

But there’s a dark side to it as well, right? I, I think there’s commonly bribes and kickbacks, and there’s just these things that are really unacceptable to Western culture in doing business. But as I understand it, commonplace in, in how things operate in a lot of Asian nations. So if you’re willing to, I would love to hear, like for one example, you signed that Wanda Group FIFA deal, I think it was 600 plus million, right? With fifa. I, I think it might have been the biggest FIFA deal in history at the time. Maybe not use that one since it was your employer, [00:18:00] but, but, but you have struck deals of that magnitude all over the world. What is true about what I just said? Or can you give us a visibility into the reality of getting sponsorship deals done in Asia in particular.

David Cipullo: Well, and I’ll even touch on the Wanda deal briefly because you know, I think that’s a completely separate issue from what you’re asking on, let’s say that some of the morals and ethics, that deal is done for different reasons than what other Western companies would associate.

One was to grow the global brand. They had things like legendary pictures and Wanda hotels that were growing around the world. So they did want to grow internationally at the time. Second part was they were trying to support the Chinese government’s initiatives to grow soccer, grow influence of soccer around the world.

So there were real reasons to go do that partnership that just aren’t what is commonplace for a Western or US brand. On the second part of what you’re asking, I think there’s evidence that there’s bribery and things you know [00:19:00] across global sports, of course. It’s sad, but it’s also very complicated if you break down different ways or different evidence that we’ve seen.

You take the top level of it, and that’s taking direct cash personally in exchange for hosting an event. And if that’s going into personal pockets, then of course that’s bribery and that’s going down the wrong road. That’s pretty clear and evident that money could be used in different ways as part of bids to go to youth programming, to go to development, to go to different areas that could all be part of the bid and make the bid more attractive.

But instead they go around and they do it for individual gain and of course that’s not right. Mm-hmm. If you go to a different level and you look into sponsorship, There it is more of a gray area where you say in the US every big company either has an agency or you can get directly to a CMO or a vice president and you can get direct contact [00:20:00] and make your pitch and say, look, we have this opportunity or this platform for you, and you can get a direct link.

In many different companies in Asia or the Middle East, you don’t have that direct connection and the decisions are truly made at the top you know, the very top level of CEO and you don’t have access. So they don’t necessarily have an agency of record to ring and say, can we put this in front of you?

And oftentimes a vice president doesn’t have the influence to even take it within his own company to a CEO. So there are advisors, if you wanna call ’em that, that sit outside of the company and you have to go through that route if you want to get a sponsorship deal. It’s almost like paying an agency a fee but it’s different. And so then it comes down to laws of each country. It comes down to your company’s attitudes towards doing business this way. It comes down to your own personal moral ethics, and it’s a different way of doing it. I know that US leagues and teams have missed out on deals because they don’t know that there’s an advisor [00:21:00] that you have to go through and that advisor just takes a fee, it’s a commission or whatever it may be, and some of the leagues don’t wanna do that.

With that said, I know every league in the world has paid commissions to people, to broker deals. Despite saying, no, we don’t pay commissions to external agents. They’ve got it, I’ve seen it.

AJ Maestas: So it’s fair to say that if you are a team here in the US and you’re now getting the ability to market your rights globally, you better be prepared to pay a commission. But it’s more of a broker than it is a kickback. Like I always thought these people actually had a fiduciary responsibility to the businesses and that people who actually worked at that brand were getting a kickback or a bribe. But you’re saying they are independent brokers of relationships, they’re like lobbyists.

David Cipullo: It happens in both ways, it happens both ways. There are people in companies that are getting kickbacks of course, but, and a lot of times, particularly in Asia, there, there are people that are advisors to this CEO and they take a [00:22:00] commission out of the deal. It’s brokering a deal, but there are of course people internally that are taking money while also being paid by their own company to broker this deal.

AJ Maestas: How do I get that job? I’m just kidding.

David Cipullo: Something tells me it doesn’t align with your moral compass.

AJ Maestas: No, no. I’m gonna pass on that. But it sounds so, it sounds so ridiculous to me, you know? So now to take things back here to the US, you came back home, you’re back in the United States. You’ve started an advisory firm, Tiger Tail, with a friend of ours, Ryan Peck. Which you know, two wonderful people on a entrepreneurial mission together makes me very happy for you guys.

I’d love to hear about what it was like to make the jump, and if you don’t mind giving us the Tiger Tail elevator pitch, just so we know, you know, how you’re gonna apply all these skills and all this experience to the current state of our industry.

David Cipullo: Sure. Making the jump, as you intimately know, I almost did it about five years ago and, for a variety of reasons, I had a bunch of interesting projects and opportunities with Infront, so I stayed for a couple more [00:23:00] years and then no one ever knows when the timing’s right to make that leap. There never is an ideal time, but you have to make that leap at some time, and right now it just feels like it is the right time. The way that global Sports sits today and what we’re offering, it seems to be the right timing for us.

Time will tell, you know, Tiger Tail what we did is put together, we wanna work for brands, properties, and investors, and we want to create traction in new markets for them. We’re not looking to do everything in the world. We do have a specialty with the international background to make sure that these brands, properties, investors don’t make the same mistakes that we’ve seen over and over in the markets when they expand into new markets.

I come from the sales and business background. Ryan comes from the brand and events side, and with the support of you and navigate helping on data and analytics, we kind of punch above our weight a bit for being a small advisory firm. Our aim essentially is to cut the cost, time, commitment, potential loss of [00:24:00] credibility, cut the learning curve, and streamline international expansion for these three groups, specifically with brands, we wanna help them optimize their investment in sponsorships, in the right markets with the right platforms.

For properties, we can help them develop their international strategy and drive revenue. And with investors, we can help them gain a stronger sense of commercial viability when they’re going to the market for potential investments. So we think we have a pretty good, strong offering, and it’s really. What you’re getting too are two senior execs, we have a couple contractors with us as well. Two senior execs that will continue to stay on your account and streamline that process when you’re going into new markets.

AJ Maestas: So concretely, can you give me a couple of examples of what you’re actually working on right now?

David Cipullo: Sure. We have a few great projects.

One, we just came back from Qatar and the World Cup and we were able to, we represent Argentina on their world tours through 2030. So we’re setting up their 2023 schedule on where they’re gonna [00:25:00] play and how we commercialize that through tv, sponsorship, ticketing. Right? That’s a great opportunity for us coming up in 2023.

Additionally, we’re working with several brands. We brokered a partnership with an Israeli gaming company, with the ufc. We’re bringing a Japanese brand into European football. We’re taking an American company into Australia. And we have a French company that’s opening a new office in Washington DC and we’re exploring sponsorship opportunities on the East coast for them.

AJ Maestas: Oh, well you just got yourself a bunch of proposals and inbound phone calls from sellers there. Good for you.

David Cipullo: I’ll take them.

AJ Maestas: Yeah. You know what? Honestly, that’s super helpful though. It is really interesting to hear that, right, because. I don’t think it’s that common. Someone is working across so many countries across the whole world.

I think it’s a testament to your Rolodex in the decade and a half you spent building those relationships. So good for you. What a start to your business. Congrats.

David Cipullo: Thank you.

AJ Maestas: Well, I think we’re deep in the parking garage as far as the elevator pitch, but I really appreciated it actually. It was [00:26:00] easy to follow, and that’s a real clear need right now. Right. I had lunch today with a MBA executive, and you know, one of the top three subjects, as it always seems to be, if not weekly, if not daily, weekly, is how do we grow our brand globally? How do we, how do we pay for that? How do we draw revenue out of that? What is the ROI on that? Having seen this from both sides of the pond, do you mind educating everyone listening on what these US domestic teams, or let’s say any team, you know, looking beyond their domestic market, what should they be doing in what order? Where is the ROI? Can you give us your playbook essentially?

David Cipullo: Sure. I’ll give you the short version of our playbook, and that’s four steps that we do.

First, we come in and we help define what those goals are mid and long term, and they need to be mid and long term, not short term. Those goals can be anything from sponsorship revenue to broader commercial revenue, fan development, database growth, player development, recruiting new investors, all sorts of things that we can look at for defining those goals, and that sets the [00:27:00] base for everything else you’re doing.

Second, we would review and recommend the markets that you should go into based upon a variety of criteria. Third, we’ll come in and build a strategy for you that would leverage whether it’s your athlete, what the league is doing, what federations are doing, how you can use technology to advance that, and a variety of other strategies.

And then fourth, if relevant, we’d be happy to execute that strategy with you, whether it’s selling sponsorship rights, aligning with other agencies in the market, growing social media, in the markets, et cetera.

AJ Maestas: It’s very helpful. I really appreciate that. This is such a priority for so many properties here in the US and I know it has been for a couple decades globally.

That’s really sage advice and I appreciate the fact that you have such a clear process. That will be helpful. Thank you. Can, can you gimme an example of ROI because I just can’t resist, you know, I’m in the measurement business here. Let’s take NBA since I brought that up earlier and, and it’s growing at such a amazing clip on a global basis.

I’m your average NBA team in an average market, maybe I’ve got [00:28:00] an international player? But he’s not in like the perfect market, right? So there isn’t an obvious path. And you said mid to long term, I appreciate that vision. What can I expect? How much do I have to spend? And what can I realistically expect back in what forms of revenue and international growth strategy?

David Cipullo: Again, it goes back to what your objectives are, but to generate revenue on this, really sponsorship is the, the lowest hanging fruit. It’s not easy. Everybody wants the Golden State rakuten deal and not everybody’s gonna get that. I mean, you see the NBA and as great as they are at growing their brand globally. They’ve had trouble getting sponsors both at the NBA level. They’ve done a pretty good job in China, Europe, so, so, but then they’ve opened the doors to teams to go internationally, and they first allowed three international partners, and as far as I’m aware, I don’t believe any team had three international sponsors.

They thought the floodgates would open and it didn’t happen. I think part of the issue there is, The offering. They just [00:29:00] went with their packages, the history of the team, the championships then, and all that stuff, and they didn’t customize that package. I would recommend that these teams go and customize a package for different markets and regions.

However, don’t spend the time customizing every individual asset of that. Be kind of firm on what you’re offering and you’re either in or not. I’d say international brands are looking for. Either instant credibility, they’re looking for attachment to the star player and they’re looking for visibility.

Don’t go pitching your CSR program in your local market, because that’s not what they’re looking for. So I’d say that the teams have a learning curve. The NBA went through it and they’ve, they’re doing pretty well now, and now the teams are going through the same thing. So I’m avoiding your question of roi. I think sponsorship is, is the first one.

I think if you want that Rakuten deal, it’s gonna come from doing smaller deals and eventually having somebody step up and come in and be on your patch [00:30:00] and then that’s an easy ROI to say it was worthwhile. Initially it’s gonna be through sponsorship and fan development, and it might go through membership programs, it might go through new investors coming into the team, whatever it may be. An ROI is gonna be tough to measure. What I would say is keep realistic expectations and then grow it as you’re growing, but it. It’s important to be prepared. When you do have a Giannis, you don’t know when that’s coming, and if you’re not prepared to go to market with fan club offers and merchandising offers and sponsorship offers, it’s too late. You need to be prepared for when Giannis comes.

AJ Maestas: Well, I hope you know, I can’t let you get out of here without asking for a prediction of some kind, and this is one of your greatest areas of expertise. It’s obvious the world is moving to global rights and global revenue. The strongest properties in the world are doing this and earning a significant amount of revenue from overseas, wherever that may be for them.

Just help us here domestically in the us what would you predict, let’s say for an NBA team. [00:31:00] An anonymous randomized NBA team’s international revenue to look like as a percent of their total revenue in the year 2040 and aggregate everything for me. Because they’re getting money back from the league on TV rights and stuff like that. What percent of revenue would you say is gonna be international in the year 2040?

David Cipullo: So if we’re looking out 17 years from now, I would say that it’s gonna be almost an equal split of 50/50 of revenue. Now, there’s two ways to getting to that path. One is through league funds of TV rights, which currently about 18, 19%.

You also have all the licensing, which the NBA’s doing an incredible job with and driving revenue. Internationally and those, that money funnels back to the teams where the growth area right now is for the teams to go out and create their own revenue through social media, sponsorships, other, other activities that they can create, like a membership club.

I would say by 2040 they should be close to a 50/50 split because the global fan base is so large [00:32:00] internationally.

AJ Maestas: Super helpful. Thank you. Thank you very much. You heard it here. It’s on the record. We will all judge David Cipullo in 2040 if he is any more than 1% off. So thank you. Well, I really appreciate you taking a shot at it saying 50%.

You know Ron Li on our team shared with me recently that. 53% of NBA fans identified as, you know, whatever metric, forget it, who cares? 53% of NBA fans come from two countries in the world, India and China. And you know it was a thought of, okay, it’s been 35 plus years, they’ve been in China, the league office, right?

And efforts marketing efforts, 20 plus years in India. It takes time, but wow. How about that? I mean, if someone could say that half your fans will come from this place, would you like to go jump in that new market? Obviously the answer is yes. Right? 2040, you heard it here first.

David Cipullo: Who would’ve thought David Stern FedExing VHS tapes to the broadcasters in China 30, 40 years ago now would end up being a successful tactic? But I think it paved the way for [00:33:00] some of their initiative.

AJ Maestas: Yeah, get it on tv. Put it out there. Such a joy, David, to pick your brain on business. Since we’re personal friends and we actually don’t get to talk about this as much as I’d like. Do you mind wrapping up with just some rapid fire questions so everyone listening can get to know you personally as well?

David Cipullo: Absolutely.

AJ Maestas: Okay, cool. Your top passions and hobbies, what are your top passions and hobbies?

David Cipullo: Outside of dominating you in pickleball.

AJ Maestas: Oh my God. That’s well, now we have our first blatant lie on air. That’s fine. Okay.

David Cipullo: No. Oh, there’s been plenty other lies on here. I’d prefer, uh, not to sify my kids as a hobby, but more of a passion, kids and family, of course. I love to golf, play basketball. Travel is a passion. Hiking, all those are things that take up my time outside of work.

AJ Maestas: Your kids are amazing. I agree. That can be a hobby when they’re that cool. Something in complete opposition to that. What is something you do to relax?

David Cipullo: I’ve been working on breathing. It helps and [00:34:00] every time something erratic happens, I’m trying to do the ten second rule of breathing. Breathing, but then also the traditional workout, steam, cold plunge, all of those. I’m a failed meditation practicer, so I often fall back on drinking wine.

AJ Maestas: Just a word of the wise. For anybody listening, do not get in a cold plunge competition with David. You’ll lose. I lost. I regretted. I started the competition. All right. You have unlimited wealth. How would you spend your time?

David Cipullo: I don’t think too much would change. I think the percentages would move a bit. I would lessen what we would consider traditional work, maybe volunteer a little bit more, and then simply adjust those passions and hobbies, the amount of time I’m spending with kids, or golfing or traveling dominating you in pickleball. All of those would adjust to a little bit more than I’m doing today.

AJ Maestas: Oh, all right. What advice can you offer to a young person who wants to follow in your footsteps?

David Cipullo: Get some help. You’re making a wrong turn.[00:35:00]

No, I would, I, I would say, I’ve always said read, read, read, or now let’s listen, listen, listen. When I was getting into the industry, I went three years without missing a sports business Daily. I would literally read it religiously. And what that did for me is I felt like I knew everybody in the industry without meeting them.

And so when I did meet them as you kind of progress in your career, it felt natural. I felt like I knew Casey Wasserman, even though he had no clue who I was. But reading the sports business daily, every day helped. Now I’m a podcast fanatic and I listen on two time speed and go through everything very quickly.

I would say that eliminate fear. I think I. If you always ask yourself what’s the worst thing that can happen? You can eliminate fear and that’s a big thing. And the last one I’d say is smile. It helps you and it helps others. And the endorphins actually do go to your brain, it makes life better.

AJ Maestas: You really do those things. I really appreciate that. You know, you are smiling, you’re [00:36:00] a happy person, and Angelica’s a happy person too. Your . Whole family’s got that going on. And you know what? You are a reader. I can remember when you were living in England or Switzerland or what have you, and you’d like check in on some, have you listened to this, seen this, whatever.

You were consuming all this content from overseas for some reason. I was impressed by how you even knew about it, how you were even following, including your Steelers.

David Cipullo: Now I don’t have to stay up till two in the morning to watch, which is a great benefit of being back in the us.

AJ Maestas: Is it a benefit to be watching the Steelers in real time right now?

David Cipullo: They’re still gonna finish above 500. No?

AJ Maestas: Congratulations. Yeah. Amazing organization. What a miracle. What a run. Well, David, thank you so much. I’m so grateful you took time to do this. It’s so cool to be able to share you with the world and. In particular, all your knowledge and insights on this international stuff that’s gonna become so important in the decades to follow here in the us.

I think you kind of gave yourself like a little bit of a, I don’t know, it’s almost like you did a little time travel fast forwarding into the place that we are now. So I’m so grateful you’re bringing [00:37:00] your skills and positive energy and knowledge and intellectual property back here for us to all use.

And thank you for joining us here on navigating sports business.

David Cipullo: Well, thank you, AJ I appreciate all the support in this transition, the recruitment back to Scottsdale.

AJ Maestas: You’re welcome.

David Cipullo: To everybody on the Navigate team too. Just so supportive in everything that we’re doing and, and we appreciate all the cooperation that you guys have done for Tiger Tail and what we’re doing.

So thank you from the bottom of our hearts. We really, really appreciate it.

AJ Maestas: It’s a gift to us. Trust me, we’re learning every day from you. If you have any questions for David or me in general, my email’s aj@nvgt.com. You can also connect with us on my personal or professional LinkedIn page. You know, navigate obviously.

But again, that was, David Cipullo from Tiger Tail that gave us his time and energy today. So again, thank you so much.

David Cipullo: Thanks.[00:38:00]