Podcast Alert: Luke Bould – alacria

Transcript

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Luke Bould: [00:00:00] Kids just weren’t engaging and the national sport. So the game was really loving itself to death, not changing, not evolving. So the Big Bash was about taking what was then a new format, and it goes for about three hours and really delivering a product that was talking to young families and kids. Bright colors, lots of music, lots of action. Which is not necessarily three statements that most people associate with cricket. 

AJ Maestas: Hello and welcome to the Navigating Sports Business Podcast. I’m your host, AJ Maestas, founder of Navigate a data-driven consulting firm, guiding major strategies and decisions in sports and entertainment. We started this podcast hoping to share the interesting stories and experiences of the amazing people we get to work with at Navigate. And even though [00:01:00] they’re visionaries and famous, in many instances, their true stories aren’t often heard. Since they’re not on the playing field, our hope is you get to know them better and learn from them as we have. Well, today we are joined by Luke Bould, who currently runs a strategic consultancy and agency Alacria out of, Sydney, Australia, with also having offices in Switzerland and the United States. And also, I’m proud to say a friend of mine who, to his friends goes by Bouldy. So, welcome, Bouldy. How you doing?  

Luke Bould: Hey, AJ, I’m great. Great to be with you. Thanks for your opportunity to have a chat.  

AJ Maestas: Well, thank you for sharing your time like this. And, and I mean that just to share, a bit of his background with everybody. He’s been in sport and entertainment for over 20 years. Started in the music business. He’s worked in. [00:02:00] Over five continents. Is this, I understand it. You’ve worked across five continents. See, here in the United States, based on my educational background, I didn’t even know there were five continents. So you’re gonna have to explain that to me later. No problem. No problem.  

Luke Bould: You’ll have a quick geography lesson, right? 

AJ Maestas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m sure one of those is Australia that you’re going to claim it’s not an island. And I’ll of course, you know, have an opposing definitely  

Luke Bould: continents, AJ, come on.  

AJ Maestas: I’m from Alaska. You know, I deal with shitty questions like that all the time. So I hope you, I hope you know that, I can understand that as a continent. But for real, some background on, Bouldy here. He’s the director of the FBA Women’s World Cup, in 2022, helping acquire that bid. Congratulations. Amazing. He’s also a member of the FIFA World Cup 2023, successful bid for Australia. So great work for the ladies there. Thank you very much. He ran the commercial business for Cricket Australia when we first met, and for those unfamiliar, it’s more than just the national team. There’s a league. It’s across the whole sport in [00:03:00] Australia. Now he went on to be the chief commercial officer and, and lead the commercial business for the FFA Football Federation of Australia, which includes the A-League, which is the premier football, or as we call it, soccer league in Australia as well. All of that before founding Alarcia is current agency. What did I miss? Bouldy? What? What’s on the resume? Resume that, the cv I should say.  

Luke Bould: I think you’ve done very well, AJ. I think, yeah, it’s, I was just listening to all of that make, and it made me feel quite old, so, I reckon that’s plenty. 

AJ Maestas: Okay, good. Well then what continents, tell me about these five continents.  

Luke Bould: Well, mate, Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia and the Americas are the five continents. I haven’t quite managed to get to Antarctica yet, but you know, who knows, maybe the Winter Olympics might, end up at Morson base or somewhere like that. But, they’re the five continents. As I think you know, aj, my. First career, if I could call it, that, was as a geologist, an earth scientist. So I’ve studied a lot of paleontology. Yeah. I’m not sure if it’s relationship to sport, but happy to [00:04:00] spend the next hour chatting about, the foundation of continence. And I’ve had the privilege of. Particularly being involved in two big international sports in soccer and cricket. So they have, you know, they’ve given me great opportunities to, to travel the world, see much of the world, and also, work in lots of different places and, and meet lots of fantastic people, in the industry and outside, just like your good self. So one of the great privileges of working in sport is the global nature of it. It’s one of the things I really enjoy.  

AJ Maestas: Well, I will never forget the way that you brought me into the Cricket Australia family. That was, in fact, I’d love to talk about it. It’s one of the best lunches I’ve ever attended in my life. But you do a great job of making friends. There’s no doubt in my mind. One of the things I forgot to mention, you know these on all these awards lists, like top 50 CMOs in Australia and all these kind of things, so more than a friend. Well, now that I know you’re qualified, I’m going to just ask, before I jump into Cricket Australia, how does a geologist get into music, sport and entertainment? 

Luke Bould: Yeah, it’s a great question. I transitioned into [00:05:00] the entertainment industry, if I could broadly call it that, basically by sort of following my heart. You know, I really enjoyed my time studying geology. I did a little bit of work as a geologist, but it wasn’t really where I saw myself spending the rest of my, my career. You know, I did. Managed to leave the mining industry right on the cusp of a mining boom. So, you know, if I give you any racehorse tips, perhaps don’t, don’t take them. But, look, my personality, my interests were far more around music and sport and, you know, so I was in my. I guess my mid twenties when I sort of sought to make the transition and knocked on lots of doors and badged lots of people. I think the, the first person in the industry that gave me a job in sport, at least after about my 17th call, said, geez, I’ll give you, I’ll give you something. You persistent. It was just one of those things of, I knew that’s where I wanted to be and I, and I, you know, I kept annoying people until they let me in. So, Sydney over Perth is what it sounds like. Yeah, well, I, I mean, I started out in Melbourne, right? Melbourne, at least [00:06:00] in Australia, likes to consider itself the, the capital of sport. So, you know, it was a great time and a great place to be. And it was also prior, just prior to the Sydney Olympic Games. So sport’s always a big thing in Australian culture, but even more so when you’re hosting an Olympics. So it was a great time to, you know, be looking to get into the industry and, yeah, a fantastic time to be in the industry. So I think a, a lot of things fell into place as well as my stubbornness.  

AJ Maestas: Well, I agree with you on Melbourne as the center of sport. I mean, for those who, haven’t had a chance to see the original Olympic Village and, and district there, it’s unlike any sports district in the world. It’s pretty incredible what’s right there adjacent to the central business district. It’s, it’s pretty unbelievable, which is again, where, where we met. And, I will never forget that lunch, by the way, just as a reminder. I love that you call this a lunch. I was all primed, ready and hungry for lunch, and got there at noon. We didn’t sit at the table until 2:00 PM The food didn’t show up until 2:30 PM so we all had, you know, liquid courage, coursing through our veins, you know what I mean? Got a [00:07:00] little loose, but you made me feel like a hero. You, you really. Put me on the spotlight and, had me share all the things that, you know, we were up to and navigates world and all that kind of stuff, with your team. And it was pretty special. It was luxurious seafood course after course. And I’m pretty sure we hit the road about 5:36 PM at night. So a lunch I’ll never forget. Thank you again, by the way.  

Luke Bould: No, that’s great. I think, I think you’re off to the cricket that night or maybe the, maybe the football or something, but yeah, look, thank you. Were very generous in sharing your insights and knowledge. So, let me assure you, we won out of the, out of the day. It was a great day.  

AJ Maestas: Yeah, it was a great day. I think there was an N all match at down in that same district. Yeah, but that’s right. So you can imagine I was real impressive to everybody when I showed up there after. Your six hour lunch. 

Luke Bould: Oh, I think it’s impressive that we can remember so many details. But anyway,  

AJ Maestas: I, maybe I don’t, maybe, maybe I don’t technically remember. So in your Cricket Australia time, I’d love to, talk about that for just a little bit. Yeah. For everyone listening who’s unfamiliar with cricket or. Just even the business of sport in [00:08:00] Australia, much like the United States with baseball, you know, they speak to the sounds of summer, it runs unopposed in the summer season as far as the sporting calendar. And, it’s a unifying sport for the country because the, there’s these other rugby football codes that divide the country in the winter months. 

National Rugby League and Rugby Union and Rugby League versus uh, a FL, which is Aussie Rules Football. Yeah. So the cold country comes together on Cricket Australia, the national team, five time World Cup champions. That’s. More than double the championships of any other country. And this is a 25 million person country. In addition to that, you are a part of launching the Big Bash league, a format of cricket that takes, you know, a test match from five days down to about two and a half, three hours. So just for that little background, knowing so many of our listeners are from the United States and, that maybe for many of them the first time understanding what the Big Bash League even is, tell me about that. Can you educate us on what the commercial business model looks like? Like. What kind of revenues out of this incredibly small population-wise country you were able to generate with Cricket [00:09:00] and Cricket Australia?  

Luke Bould: Yeah, sure. Look, you know, it’s obviously a six or seven years now since I was there, but cricket is the national sport. It is, as you’ve described, traditionally, the only sport that had a national footprint that that’s started to change. But Cricket also has a, is a. Challenging game, and as I think many American listeners would probably ascribe right, it’s a long game. It can go for five days. It can not have a result at the end of five days. And it’s a sport that, you know, the experience of the ebbs and flows across those five days is as rewarding in, in many cases as, as the result. And that’s, that’s unusual, but it also makes it a really difficult sport to introduce to a new audience. Right? It’s difficult to get Americans to, understand and want to watch five. Days, 30 hours if you like, at Cricket, but it’s also difficult to get young Australians. And so the Big Bash was really developed as a result of a, a big piece of research that we did at Cricket Australia to understand, you know, our audience and, and understand what the future of the audience looked like. And what that told us was that, you know, [00:10:00] there was a really loyal 35 plus audience that really enjoyed all formats of the game. There was a 20 to 35. Cohort who liked what was, what was called One Day Cricket, which was a essentially an eight hour single day version of the game. But below that 20-year-old, kids just weren’t engaging and the national sport, the number one sport was in fact the eighth most, most popular sport of that young cohort. 

So the game was really loving itself to death, not changing, not evolving. So the Big Bash was about taking what was then a new format, 2020 Cricket. So each side faces 20 overs of six balls and it goes for about three hours. And really delivering a product that was talking to, to young families and kids. Bright colors, lots of music, lots of action. Which is not necessarily three statements that most people associate with cricket. So the result of that was we saw a whole heap of things occur, but one of the most significant things that occurred was an, an increase in, in revenues, in commercial revenues. And in [00:11:00] fact, the last broadcast deal for the Big Bash for Cricket as a whole, but for the Big Bash, essentially values the Big Bash broadcast at, a hundred million Australians. So that’s about 75 million US per annum. 10 years ago that that number was zero. So you saw significant growth in that. You saw growth in sponsorship revenues, and so, you know, sponsorship at the start of the Big Bash was about 40 million. For Cricket Australia, you know, it’s pushing sort of 80 to a hundred million now and in large part driven out of the Big Bash growths. So there’s a substantial impact that that product has had, and there’s obviously attendance and ticket sales and all those things as well. But, it’s certainly changed cricket and, and made Australian cricket far less reliant on international tours and more reliant on a domestic league. 

AJ Maestas: Well, and just to help quantify that, especially for our US listeners, Australia’s population is about 13th of the United States, so Yeah. You know, when you think of a national team and, and then you think of this league and how, how many original. Was it eight clubs?  

Luke Bould: Eight clubs in the Big Bash? Yeah. [00:12:00] It’s probably worthwhile it’s point. Yeah. Just to talk about the Australian market, to give some context. 26 million people in Australia. There are more professional sports teams in Sydney and Melbourne each than there are in the whole of California. There are 5 million people in Sydney and 5 million people in Melbourne, and 38 million people in California. 

So it’s an incredibly competitive market. You know, we have too many professional sports in Australia. You know, we have four different football codes as an example. So, the two Rugby’s, rugby league, rugby union, both professional football codes we have. Have soccer, as a professional football coach, which we’ll talk some more about, I’m sure. And Australian rules football or Australian football, the AFL, which is our own unique brand of, of football, a little bit like you guys and, and NFL and that’s really the biggest sport in many respects in terms of revenues. So add cricket, add Australian Open Tennis, add Formula one, grand Prix, add golf. You know, it’s a incredibly competitive market.  

AJ Maestas: Yeah. And, and you know, that’s meaningful because. Common conversation [00:13:00] here in the United States is this market is crowded, you know, or is there room for this? Right. So there has, been attempts and moderate success at an alternative basketball league in the G League. And there’s been some fits and starts with an alternative grid, iron American football league. Yep. That’s right. We were fortunate enough to work on, on both of those, in the last few years. It was a common conversation. I would actually cite the work that we have done together. The, the landscape that you know and live in quite often, you know, in understanding are we really passionate fans? I think Ireland faces a similar situation with a population of 5 million people and they fill up some pretty significant stadiums with several different sports that are pretty rare, if not unique to Ireland. But, but there’s nothing like Australia. There is no more competitive marketplace in the world, without question. Unbelievable. And just to revisit that exercise that, that Bould just took us through. Sydney and Melbourne each about 5 million people. As you heard, you know, the number of football clubs in those are more comparable to the whole country. Texas. The population of Australia is kind of between [00:14:00] Florida at 21 million and Texas at 29 million. So picture that one of those states you could roughly say and then. That number of professional sports clubs, that amount of competition and leagues, and yet I think there’s been pretty incredible success for them all.  

Luke Bould: Yeah, I mean, what, what Australia’s been very good at is monetizing its audience. So if you look particularly at the A FL and the NRL, their ability to monetize their audience and therefore drive revenues and and professionalism and deliver a product that. Is certainly at a level that is competitive with the best in the states. That’s quite extraordinary. So there are a lot of lessons in that. And, you know, media rights have driven, that. Media rights have been responsible in Australia for about two thirds of the revenues historically of, of the major sports sponsorship for, you know, nearly a third. And then, you know, ticket sales and other things. It’s the ability to monetize and drive eyeballs to tv has been, you know, the, the, the secret sauce, I guess, of Australian sport that’s changing just like it is everywhere else in the world. But it’s the thing that’s made the aggregation and the, and [00:15:00] the growth of, in all of these professional codes possible, whether or not that’s going to hold out long term is, you know, is perhaps the, the million dollar question. 

AJ Maestas: And I’d like you to help me understand that better. I do want to come back to the Big Bash Lee. Cause a lot of the parallels you drew between. Applies to baseball here in the United States and, and, and attracting that next generation of fans. I think that’s pretty meaningful lessons to learn for me and anyone who would listen to this. But this is also an interesting point about the commercial rights and monetizing those fans and how it has been done in Australia. We were fortunate enough at Navigate to work on the National Rugby League TV deal five years ago, and, and we felt like it was a significant leap forward at that time on a relative basis to the a FL given that they had stronger audience and, you know, viewership numbers. But some of the things at that time was looking at streaming, you know, direct to consumer OTT. That was pretty early in that era. One of the lessons we learned that, socioeconomically Australia is pretty comparable to the United States. Now they cover this geography that’s almost the size of the [00:16:00] continental US, with only 25 million people. 

But as far as education, income, passion, and interest in sport, you know, adoption of social, digital mobile, it, it was comparable. GDP per capita, you know, educational levels of attainment. So if you don’t mind expanding on that sort of topic. Yeah. On how two thirds of revenues coming from those media rights, when those rights are splintered, as you shared with all those competing leagues, with this small number of people. How has that been done? How has that justified. Because here in the United States, on average with the leagues, television is approaching or just eclipsing 50% of revenue for leagues. That’s, that’s about where it’s at. Yeah. And so if you break it down as a pie chart of like revenue sources, it’s just passing, ticketing. It hasn’t yet, and baseball’s an example, but most it, it, it’s happening in the next decade, essentially, where television revenue will pass ticketing revenue. Nowhere near that in Australia. Right. So how is that?  

Luke Bould: There, there’s a few things to keep in mind. So if, and we might use AFL as the example if that’s okay. You know, AFL has [00:17:00] 18 teams and it plays 23 rounds competitive football. So, you know, each team’s playing 23, 22, 23 games. That means that, you know, you’re not getting the volumes of games that you are in Major League baseball or in NBA you’re far, you got a model that’s far more, like the NFL. So first and foremost. One of the reasons that ticket revenue in Australia is less or less of a percentage of total revenue than perhaps those other code, those two codes in the US is just because of volume of gain, first and foremost. The second thing, you know, the AFL currently generates about 364 million Australian dollars worth of annual broadcast revenue. So let’s call that 300 us. You know, that’s offered. Base of fans, that’s about 8 million. So there’s about 8 million Australians who identify as AFL fans, or at least you know, AFL fans that are watching regularly, that are spending money on merchandise, on season tickets and the like. So that’s a, that in itself is a pretty, you know, extraordinary [00:18:00] monetization of a small audience. 

So that, that’s, you know, the first element. The other, element of, or major revenue element for the a FL is, is. Their commercial revenues, which includes ticket sales. So they, they revenues x, broadcast and that’s, another 200 million. So, and that’s, you know, in us to about 150 million. So, you know, you, you’re seeing there that, that, that 60 40, 66, 33 split, now you know, the reality is that the AFL’s non TV revenues have been growing. And growing reasonably substantially. Their broadcast revenues have grown, but we’re seeing broadcast values in Australia starting to plateau. So we may very well be starting to see a tip towards a more American model or more American split of revenues. But to do that, the AFL’s going to have to get more than 200 million out of those 8 million people. They’re trying to work out how to monetize their audience in a different way. How do they get more money out of a limited audience? And when you think about that in the US context of franchises and 75 mile [00:19:00] radius, there’s a an enormous amount of work to be done to identify how to take a, a constrained audience size and get more money out of them. And that’s a, that’s a piece of work that, you know, we’re really interested in and a piece of work. We’re working with some sports in Australia and, and, you know, ideally soon we’ll be working with some sports in the US on there is a lot of opportunity there, but it requires doing business in a different way. 

AJ Maestas: Right, right. No, but, but that’s helpful. I mean, you say your model might be moving to more toward what we see in the us but as I shared with you, you know, TV’s, I think sometimes we’re looking in the future when we look at Australia. I know a lot of Australians don’t feel that way. They, they, and I, I really appreciate this about people in the business of sport in, in Australia. They, they look all over the world. They travel all over the world looking for best practices, but I don’t think there’s anybody in the world that does more with less given that competitive environment. Right. And, and the small sort of population means. Slicing up this very small pie. I actually see it as a window into the future. Right on, on the reliance on media rights and value. But that’s a good point. Those leagues, the [00:20:00] amount of inventory, the amount of broadcast, and the relative revenue.  

Luke Bould: One of the interesting things, right, we, we know in the Australian context that 75% of, of the revenue of the non-broadcast revenues that sports get, the professional sports get in Australia, come from the 6% of fans. Who’ve participated in the sport. So if you think about that, getting kids to play the game, to build a lifelong affinity and then to connect them with the clubs and the league is a really, really important, requirement to growth. And it’s something that Australian sport, there’s a war going on for fa for participants in Australian sport. 

The offers that are out there to come and play programs that are there are really substantial. Cause every sport knows that it’s future revenues and it’s future growth in large part, relies on getting more kids to play and build that affinity. And I think when you translate that into the American context, that’s really interesting because you know, there aren’t that many. At least in my experience, and I’m happy to be told otherwise, of the pro [00:21:00] teams that are doing an enormous amount really in getting kids out and playing. And you know, one of the major issues in American sport is the declining participation rates. You know, even soccer is seeing declining participation amongst youth and kids, and that’s causes an enormous amount of problems, obesity, health, all of those sorts of things. But it also is a lost financial and revenue opportunity. That’s certainly a really interesting conversation that’s taken place between us and, and a number of sports and we’re, you know, we’re now working with a, with a small sport in the US to help create some opportunities in that space.  

AJ Maestas: I would love to debate this for a second, because this is, yeah. This is something we frequently work on, you know, the, the, yes. The path. Yeah. And, and the pathway to fandom has changed, right? Like, I mean, mobile phones have changed this equation. We are seeing, you know, the younger Gen Z, let’s call it, you know, 13 to 17, spending about four hours of entertainment time on these per day versus somewhere between one and two on what we traditionally think of as far as TV and participation rates, [00:22:00] to your point down. But we’re seeing other paths. We’re seeing short form content. Ability to really interact through social, digital, mobile. We’re seeing and challenges as well, right. eSports gaming, you know, so forth and so on. So, big picture, if I could draw just a broad picture of what’s happening in the US and I’d love to hear your share with us. 

You know, juxtapose that versus Australia, I guess is what I’m asking. Yeah. We are losing the battle in participation and entertainment time, both through media broadcast streaming and participation to social, digital, mobile. eSports. But here, here’s the problem, and this is the part that I would say would be a little bit of debate to what you’re saying. Cause I know exactly what you’re talking about. Everyone’s competing for participation. It’s happening here in the US too. But the most popular RAFL, you know, to the United States would be the NFL. Yeah. And a very small percent of fans. And a very small percent of their revenue is from those who actually played the game. So whether by virtue of their sport or the popularity of it, it has broken that sort of cycle of that heavy reliance on past participants. So I don’t know if that [00:23:00] sparks anything for you, but, if I, you know, if Australia’s a crystal ball into the future, I’d, I’d like you to share with us where it’s going. 

Luke Bould: I see that as a, as an opportunity. Look, you know, the two markets are different, right? And there are, yeah, there are clear differences in the way that sport at community level is administered. Australia has a system that’s much more like you see in Europe where there’s clubs and clear pathway from school to clubs for those who aren’t going to play pro ball, pro whatever, I guess. So there are differences, but the reality is that if you think about college sports, you know, college sports is bankrolled by the Alma Martin. That, that loyalty to your college and your desire to support, attend, watch by you understand, right that that loyalty is what we’re trying to create through participation. 

Now, clearly it’s different, but the reality is all of the research shows that if you play a game. At a young age, you’ve got a much higher propensity to consume that game at an older age group. You know, one of the challenges soccer has in, in the US and, and in [00:24:00] Australia, it being, you know, a, a, a challenge of sport if you like, is that it’s very, very difficult to get people in my age group or your age group who’ve been watching sport for longer than we care to remember. To adopt new sports. It, it’s just costly and it’s just really, really difficult. It’s much easier to get our children to try that sport at school or try that sport in a camp and, you know, build an affinity with that sport and get the kid or the kids to say to mom and dad, you know, I want to go to an MLS game, or I want to go to an A-League game, or A-N-W-S-L game. That’s just, I think, common sense in many respects. So, you know, I think the other point I’d make, and I’m interested in your view on this, aj, is I’m unaware of too many professional teams and, you know, N-B-A-N-F-L, who are actively working really, really hard on driving participation, you know, in their region, in their franchise. 

So if that’s the case, it’s not enormously [00:25:00] surprising that the data that you’ve just quoted is happening. So I think that’s an opportunity now, you know, NBA have some great programs, you know, flag foot, NFL, flag football going through a bit of a rebirth. We all know about Pop Warner. I mean, there are, there are programs out there, but the linkage between playing and the club building that affinity building, that lifetime engagement, we just don’t see it in the occurring in the US in the same way that it’s evolved in Australia. And I think it’s a real opportunity.  

AJ Maestas: Well, I’d love for you to share some of the things that you’ve done about this, because you’re right, that’s true. Major League Baseball, I will say, has put a ton of money into academies, but, but I don’t even know if that’s necessarily the right place to put that money. Cause it’s very expensive, you know, especially in an effort for diversity. It’s a lot of urban markets that they’ve pushed these academies because they felt like they were. Losing an advantage and an edge in the diversity that they once reflected. But with that said, it’s very expensive and I think some of the best stories are your very own stories, to be perfectly honest on you. 

You with the FFA Football Federation [00:26:00] Australia, so the global game of football, which their air league. A league parallels are major league soccer pretty well by the way, you know, as far as its priority on the domestic landscape and, you know, interest levels yet the youth participation, you know, was there. So if you don’t mind sharing, I would love to know the story cause you made some serious investments in the nine to 15 age range at the FFA and then the big Bash league, which we were talking about earlier, was very much, one of the very central goals. Connecting past generations with current generations and, and capturing the, the youth again. So tell us what happened. Anything you can do to quantify it of course makes yeah, me happy given what I do for a living.  

Luke Bould: I mean, the Big Bash, I might start with the Big Bash. I’ll come back to soccer. Um, the. Because we’ve kind of touched on that. Yeah. The Big Bash was established as I mentioned earlier, because of cricket’s, aging fan base and lack of engagement in young age groups. And it Cricket had fallen from the number one sport for, you know, under 20 year olds to the number [00:27:00] eight and was, you know, it was heading in the wrong direction. So, you know, real decline in the way that, kids were engaging in the game. The Big Bash was absolutely about as its first priority, second priority, and third priority. How do we create a product that gets kids to the game? And so. If you think about that and you think about what we’ve just discussed in terms of participation, you then need to turn your participation products into essentially a marketing tool for the Big Bash. So if you go back to pre the Big Bash, what was then called into Cricket, which was the essentially entry level program, first touch program of Cricket for kids in clubs and schools and community groups, ages five to eight. That was all about national teams, green and gold. So it was about, you know, becoming a, a men’s or women’s national team player. After the Big Bash was started, it suddenly morphed into what’s now called [00:28:00] Cricket Blast. Woolworths is the sponsor. Woolworths Cricket Blast and its colors are all Big Bash teams colors. 

The format of the game is the Big Bash 2020 format. And so if you play that game, that program in Brisbane, for example. Everything that you’ll receive is the, is the color of the Brisbane Heat Team from the Big Bash. If you play in Perth, it’s the color of the Perth scorches, you know, orange. So absolutely it’s about getting kids out and playing and active and, and all the benefits that come from that. It’s also really important marketing tool with complete linkages, direct linkages between what you see experience on the pitch playing and the league that Cricket Australia wants you to attend football or soccer. Like in the us in Australia, soccer is the number one participation sport. So it’s got a massive participation base, but it has, you know, had a couple of failed leagues over its history. 

And, you know, 15 years ago, essentially the, the old league was shut down and a new league started, which is, you [00:29:00] know, a, a very familiar tail to soccer fans in the us. This was essentially about bringing a new sport into a non-traditional market. And that’s something that, as an aside, we’re doing some work on in the US with USA Cricket at the moment. We might talk about it later on. So what we had to do was build a fan base for teams that were brand new. New franchises essentially, and again, this is not unusual, but for the US but you know, these weren’t one team towns. These were towns that had, you know, in, in the case of Melbourne and Sydney, now each, each of those cities have three plus teams in them. 

So we had to build affinity. And so what we did was we said, okay, well that’s got to be about kids. Because getting parents who may be. Are soccer fans, but the European soccer fans to adopt the Australian teams is too hard. Getting non soccer fans to adopt the teams is too hard. So we’re going to go to kids and we’re going to promote through participation, the, the A League and W League, which is the Women’s League here, [00:30:00] teams, and get them to become, use pester power, essentially get. Them to become the advocates for the teams and the brands with mom and dad so that they can then watch on tv, they can attend games. And to give you some data. 36% of under 15 year olds in Australia had a league teams. When we started this campaign, within 12 months, we pushed that past 50% and it’s now up over, or, you know, around the 60% mark, which for a league that’s now 15 years old is a pretty substantial result, you know, in a very competitive market. So, you know, in both of those instances, get to the hearts and minds of the kids. Get them engaged. Use participation as a marketing tool, and you can see some substantial changes in behaviors over a reasonably short amount of time.  

AJ Maestas: That’s incredible. You know, those numbers blew away. What, what? This happened here in the US with Major League Soccer, which again is the closest parallel to the A league in, in Australia that I can think of. Not just because of the, you know, the game on the pitch, but you [00:31:00] know its status versus peers. That’s unbelievable. Congratulations. And the Big Bash league. I can recall roughly the numbers, so I don’t want to misquote them, but, but some of the things that really stood out to me, some anecdotes were. 

Grandkids talking to their grandparents and sitting around and enjoying cricket together for the first time. That either could remember, you know, there was this, but the numbers are ridiculous, like triple digit growth. The league, to my knowledge, is the number one or two most successful launch of a sporting league in the world. I think the IPL would be the one that you could debate versus it, but within two years, tearing up the TV contract, doing a new contract, you know, reaching breakeven. I know it was run thread bear in a lot of ways, but it’s unbelievable to think about this, right? There was no. Short form. There was no 2020 league or form of cricket in the country. So it’s a new format, new League eight clubs, and then that quickly achieving those goals and then some pretty cool, it’s not every day you get to launch new leagues, new properties like that. And again, I know we’re beating a dead horse, but it is so competitive there. That it makes me [00:32:00] believe that if you can do that in Australia, how could you not do that in a 330 million person country in here, in the us Right. With far less alternatives.  

Luke Bould: Yeah, I think that’s right. And you know, it’s, you’ve got to be prepared to crack some eggs though, as we, as we like to say. And if you think about. Cricket, there are that many highlights and that many key moments, big sixes which are, you know, the equivalent of to hitting the ball out of the park in baseball, I guess. Great catches and just so much action that if you don’t sit down and watch the whole game, that’s okay because there are some awesome highlights, packages of, of two or three minutes, maybe a five minute longer form where there’s so much to watch that it’s just a great, great piece of content. So it really, really brings cricket into the 21st century and creates so many byproducts that it makes engagement far more easier to promote and sell. 

AJ Maestas: I mean, it’s one of my favorite stories to share with people over here cause there’s a resistance to change, you know, baseball. They will tell you it’s steeped in [00:33:00] history and the fan base will not accept change, but it’s about a third or a fourth as old as cricket. And you know, it’s pretty clear that baseball’s a derivative of cricket. Right. That’s, it’s hard to believe it wouldn’t be. And that’s how, how it found its way here. Right. 

Luke Bould: It’s George Washington played cricket. Hi. George Washington was a cricketer.  

AJ Maestas: I assume so. I assume so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No question. And so, you know, here, here we are though, right? Innovation is difficult. To your point, you got to break some eggs, right? So congratulations. The, those are truly incredible. So, you mentioned, gen Z or Gen Z rather as you call it, over there on that either very large island continent. Yes. Continent, I guess. If you insist, Gen Z, you know, we just released a Gen Z study, right? And, you can do, you can look at our LinkedIn and navigate and pull a bunch of the free insights. 

Luke Bould: Can I interrupt you by saying that I’ve taken the true two truths and a lie test, the navigate two truths and a lie test on Gen Z. I’m not going to tell you the results, but I will say that they were less than I would’ve hoped. 

AJ Maestas: Oh, that’s okay. You know, [00:34:00] that was a US domestics. Study so you can, you can use as an excuse that, you know that those are just American Gen Z. But I’m glad you, I’m really flattered you did that. And you know, one of the reasons that, Kelly and Allie on our team built it that way was even the things that are true and affirm your choices can be a little surprising out of that generation. Well, some of our data out of that is, I think 23% of, of, of that generation find it. Sports participation or viewership is something important in their lives as opposed to 32% as eSports, or even reading and, and content online, 32%. Just to give you sort of a relative scale, one of the really fun charts we use to surprise people as we show that Gen Z. The codes here in the United States always dominated by the NFL and in this case it is again, but the number two competition is Fortnite in their eyes as far as sport and entertainment, which is pretty shocking cause there’s some sports here, you know, the NBA and MLS that have done excellent with that generation. 

So anyway, I Cheryl that just to say that. This is critical. The conversation [00:35:00] we’re having is absolutely critical to the survival and success financially and otherwise of sport because it is a dramatic drop in importance in participation and a number of other factors for these younger generations. This most recent study we did also includes Gen Alpha and you know, the trend continues, uh, is the long story short. So if you don’t mind sharing any other best practices, anything else you can. Tell us about your competition versus these mobile devices and what you’re doing to hold the line or what you’re seeing out there with other clients, uh, in Australia or beyond.  

Luke Bould: Yeah, that there, there’s a, there’s a whole heap in that isn’t there, right?. You know, I think the first point is no one knows the answer. So, you know anyone who tells you they’ve got the answer, that’s just not reality, and that’s why we’re seeing, you know, so much trial and error, which is, which is not a bad thing. We can’t keep doing the same things because clearly behavior is changing and we know that, you know, there needs to be new things tried. So that’s my starting point. No one knows the answer. And you got to, and you got to, I’ll use the term again, break some eggs, right? You got to do some different things. Look, you know, I might just quickly [00:36:00] talk about eSports. We in soccer in Australia knew or know that the FIFA game on PlayStation and Xbox and so forth is a, was a real gateway product to the sport. So we know that a lot of young Australian kids might have kicked the ball around the park, but loved playing FIFA on the PlayStation. So. We established an eSports league, I, I established an eSports league, I guess or led the establishment of it after coming back from spending some time in New York and talking to the guys, you know, involved in League of Legends, talking to the guys at, at the time were establishing the Overwatch League and realized two things. 

We were sitting on opportunity with a, with an engaged audience that we’d done nothing to. Bring across or at least expand their football engagement into the A-League and W League. And secondly, we couldn’t sit by and let others just own the space. So we established the A-League it’s now into its fourth year. Did some phenomenal numbers in year one. And I don’t have them in front of me, aj, but you know what was interesting was great numbers [00:37:00] in Australia. Our second biggest market out of Australia was the US. And so, you know, we did, we had a great relationship with Twitch. And, you know, the interest in the US in Australian eSports football was really, really incredible. So there’s clearly an opportunity there. In terms of other things, look, I think the first thing you need to do is to make sure you can, your content is, is viewable on as many platforms as possible, and I think. ESPN as a broadcaster, which seems like a quaint term now, has done a great job of that. Right? 

You know, ESPN plus the investment that Disney’s made in that platform, and the fact now that, you know, as an ESPN subscriber, you have multiple ways to consume their content and you can consume it anywhere. That’s really powerful for them and for the sports that are on their platforms. So I think that’s important. 

I think non-live content. And I’m interested in your, what the data says about non-live content in your study, AJ. I think sport has been able for a long time to [00:38:00] just live within the culture of sport, but Gen Z and Gen Alpha, they’ve got a bigger view and they’ve got. Everything in, available to ’em on their phone. 

So they’re interested in culture across the board. So sport needs to be broader than just something that occurs on a pitch for 90 minutes, you know, each, each weekend, each Sunday. It’s got to build non-live content and, and content that can be engaging. That’s around lifestyles, that’s around the players, that’s around their experiences, and I think there’s some great examples of that. But there, there needs to be more of that because it’s going to make the sport and its athletes more relevant to these audiences more often. It doesn’t mean they’re going to sit down and watch the full 90 minutes, but it means they’re much more likely to see how Anthony Davis went with the Lakers. I’ve, my, my son is a big ad fan, and he’s got a bobblehead sitting on my desk. 

You know how he went, we, we might have watched. 80 minutes of basketball, but we’re going to watch, you know, the highlights of ad. So that’s important. And I note that what I think is interesting is we’re seeing Amazon and Netflix and [00:39:00] others start to invest in, you know, non-life content and products like Formula One Drive to survive Sun until I die. All or nothing on Prime. You know, there’s a reason why these non-sports broadcasters are investing in non-live sports content. That’s a, that’s a pretty strong sign. I think the other thing, short form highlights is, is really critical, right? I don’t think that’s a revelation. That can be a money driver. And the example I’ve got for you on that, mate, is that Kes k Honda is a legend of Japanese soccer. You know, probably arguably their greatest player ever. Certainly one of their top two in terms of our fandom. He came and played in the A-League in Australia in 2019, and suddenly the broadcast rights from Japan for the A-League went from literally zero. Two, seven figures in one year, and all of it was highlights, driven. So there were no, no one bought the long form rights. They all bought the rights to do, to take highlights. So there’s clearly, you know, this clearly monetization opportunity in, in all of that as well. Hey, the other thing I wanted to raise [00:40:00] AJ is, you know, we’ve got this great product outside of America called NBA Life Pass, which, which I’m sure you’re familiar with, NBA, have cottoned onto the idea that you should just let people watch the game. Anyway, they choose because as long as they’re watching in some way, you’re winning. Right? If they don’t have to watch the whole game. So, you know, NBA live pass gives you options like watching the last, you know, two minutes of the game for a, for a small fee. I don’t know what the data is on that. You may have some, but it’d be really interesting to, to see how that’s working. Irrespective of how it’s working. It’s a great marketing piece because it tells the fan that they can consume the game live in any way they see fit. That’s, you know, that’s a really good message.  

AJ Maestas: So one more thing about media and models and such, and that would be that you developed the commercial and broadcast models for soccer and obviously Cricket Australia, but the Champions League, the T 20 Tournament, played in India and South Africa. Can you tell me about that? I mean, that’s a global look that not a lot of Americans have a feel for as far as where the money’s [00:41:00] coming from, how you did it. How was it distributed?  

Luke Bould: Yeah, and look, you know, this, this product has many, many fathers. Um, it was a joint venture between the Australian board or Cricket Australia, the board in India, or the governing body in India and the governing body in South Africa and involved teams, in invited 2020 teams from around the world to compete. It was a product that was. Almost entirely driven by broadcast. There was a 10 year billion dollar broadcast deal signed with what was then ESPN, star Sports, and that essentially funded the competition for its first few years at least. And, you know, we played the first season in India. We then sort of alternated between India and South Africa. But, and you know, the, the Indian in particular, the Indian sports market is a really different beast. If, NFL’s big in America and cricket’s big in Australia, well, they’ve got nothing on cricket in India. I mean, you know, 1.4 billion people and it is a national religion, but it’s also obviously a country that has some major issues with [00:42:00] poverty, albeit a big middle class. So we made some money out of sponsorship. We made very little money out of ticket sales. But the large proportion of money that, that , funded the event was, was from the broadcast revenues that were driven by ESPN Star at the time.  

AJ Maestas: Yeah. Interesting. Super helpful. You know, one of the things I learned, along with you and some of the cricket stuff that I was exposed to in my Australia time was that the US can often be the number two market television market for cricket. Yeah. And that is not something any American, most Americans, I should say, would, recognize or guess.  

Luke Bould: There are 28 million cricket fans in the States, AJ, many of them, you know, from, from South Asia and the Caribbean. But, you know, that’s a sizable audience. And you know, Willow have built a great business, in the US broadcasting, cricket.  

AJ Maestas: Yeah. Canada and the US. Yeah. So legalized gambling is rolling out in the us. I know we’re very cutting edge, always, always on the front edge. Speaking to you, I know you’ve done some pretty incredible deals in gaming with these sort of gaming partners. Is there any [00:43:00] lessons that you could share with my friends that are asking themselves, how do I monetize this? What does it mean to my fandom? What does it mean to viewership and broadcast? And when we get to a place that it’s mature here in the us, what’s it going to look like as compared to today where it’s still illegal in certain states?  

Luke Bould: Yeah, look, it’s Australia went through exactly what the US is going through 15 years ago. Interestingly, you know, I, I know that a lot of people in the US are looking to the UK as sort of a benchmark market, if you like. What we found was that in Australia, the culture around sports betting ended up being nothing like the UK. You know, the UK have had. 50 years of, of legalized sports betting, give or take. And so, you know, you look at the, the, the Premier League and half the shirts in the Premier League have got betting companies on them. Right? That’s just something that Australians weren’t prepared to accept. I had the privilege of doing the first sports betting deal in Australia, and it was done between Cricket Australia and BET Fair. We literally negotiated the terms of that agreement whilst the high court, which is the Australian equivalent of [00:44:00] your Supreme Court, was reaching its determination and then. When it was determined that sports betting was legal or would become legal, we signed the deal, within a week and then we’re on air within a week. And so that meant that we made a heap of mistakes. You know, doing commentators reading thoughts odds did not go down well with the Australian public. Integration of book bookmakers into commentary panels did not go down well with the Australian public. So we learn a whole lot. We also learnt the challenges that you are going through. You know, we don’t have 50 states, but we do have seven. And those seven all had different legislation, different tax regimes. So we had to change what we did as we went round to each state. You know, there were enormous challenges and it’s taken 15 years to really get. Position where there is a sense of normalcy across the country in terms of legislation. 

That said, there are still different tax rates in different states and in, you know, there are certain taxes in, in some [00:45:00] states that don’t apply in others. So it’s from a administration of a sports book, it’s incredibly, it’s incredibly challenging thing to do and, and only more so when, you know, as you say, you’ve got 50 states and 50 different. Pieces of legislation. So I think though you, you inevitably are going to get to a position where all of those states will make it legal or very, very close to all of those states. So that, that’s the first thing. I think there’s no doubt that sports betting has changed the way Australians consume sports. 

The most obvious example of that is if you go back 15 years and you were talking about who was going to win a match. You would never talk about the odds. That just wasn’t in people’s dialogue. It was, you know, all the things you’d expect. It was, this player’s out or they’re playing on their home pitch, or whatever it might be. And whilst that conversation still occurs, a discussion of the odds takes place in, in nearly every conversation so that that has. Change the dialogue and that, that’s been concerning to Australians in many respects because of the issue of [00:46:00] problem gambling and which, which is a big issue and become a bigger issue as a result of sports betting, but also because that’s what under eighteen’s talking about in Australia 18, is, is the age where you can start to drink and you can vote, you can drive and, and you can bet legally. 

And so when you’ve got, you know, I’ve got a 14-year-old son who, who asked me what the odds are of, of his football team winning. You know that that’s concerning for people. And so that, that’s one of the things that’s occurred and now you go to a lot of websites or Australian sports websites, you can actually turn the odds on or off on the website so that you can protect young people from, from exposure to that. In terms of stickiness, I don’t think we have seen, I’ve seen no evidence or no data that shows that we’ve seen an increase in stickiness as a result of sports betting. You know, what we know is that people who bet on sports fall into two buckets. So there are fans who’ve been long-term fans of a sport who will punt. They might punt regularly, but it, it hasn’t really changed the way [00:47:00] that they consume that sport. But then you’ve got those who watch or who punt. To make money who, who are not necessarily professional punters, but more active punters. And they are much more likely to watch sports on an app, on a phone. 

They’re much more likely to watch a short burst of sports. So they’ll watch their, their view time will be purely for the, the moment that their bet is occurring. So in the case of a race that’s clearly, you know, the, the length of the race, but if they’re betting on. A six being hit on the fifth ball of the fourth over of a cricket game. Well, they’ll tune in to watch that and then they’ll tune out. So we, they’re consuming more sport, but they’re consuming sport on a, on a completely transactional basis. What we are seeing is more consumption of international sport. And I’ll give you a really odd example of that. Filipino basketball, you know, basketball’s, uh, the national sport in the Philippines, the Filipino basketball league now has a following in Australia. Amongst the sports betting community because [00:48:00] basketball’s a great game to bet on. You know, there’s good regulation of that league and the time zone from the Philippines to the continent of Australia, AJ is really, really good. So, yeah, that’s right. So, so we are seeing that, we’re seeing greater consumption of US sports as a result. You know, the NBA now has an official betting partner in Australia. As an example. So we are seeing greater consumption of international sports, but that still tends to be on a transactional basis amongst the really rusted on punt. So there’s a few, I guess, outtakes of the Australian sports betting industry, or at least the first 15 years of it. 

AJ Maestas: Well, and if it took 15 years for maturity there, given more states, you know, it’s more viewpoints, more politics. So tell me about Alacria. What are you guys up to? What is your new current professional life consisting of?  

 Luke Bould: Yeah, it, it consists of lots of early mornings and late nights is the first thing, but, which is good. Now look, we started 18 months ago or so. Now. It was started by [00:49:00] myself, a fellow called Chris Nunn, who worked with me at, at Cricket Australia, has been in sport almost as long as me, but was the managing director of US Sports Insights Business in Australia. Nowhere near as good as Navigate, of course, AJ. But, he, he joined us from them. And another, another gentleman by the name of Dino Dip Domenico. Dino runs a, a business that works in sports participation, helping sports with their participation programs in Australia, the uk, and, and now working in the us. So we started the business. The business really is about, is helping, businesses, craft experiences that attract new customers and, and keep those customers engaged and, for life to maximize their value. 

So if you think about sport, it’s, it’s about attracting new fans and getting a really deep understanding of those fans and maximizing the commercialization, the monetization of those fans over their lifetime. And so, you know, we work with sports here and now in the states where we, we’ve been appointed by USA Cricket. To help them with their [00:50:00] participation strategy, marketing, and commercialization of their entry level programs. So that’s, you know, that’s a real exciting project for us, working with some great people over there. People like Jim ish who, you know, used to be at the NCAA, and others. So that’s really exciting. You know, we work with sports, across multiple jurisdictions on driving their engagement with their fan base and growing their fan base. That’s the simplest description of what we do.  

AJ Maestas: Congrats. Congrats, congrats on USA cricket and, congrats on launching this. You know, I think the world of you and none, and, if you can solve this problem in Australia with all the scarcity and competition that we just talked about, then I have a good feeling that you’ll have some incredible insight and wisdom for those of us in far less competitive markets that have the exact same challenges. So I got a couple quick hitter questions for you. You ready? Sure. And then we’re done. Yeah. Alright. Where’s your favorite place to travel? Any continents you like to go to?  

Luke Bould: Yeah, I know that I’m supposed to only give you a one answer, but I love the Greek Islands to chill. I love going to New York for work and, and to just hang out. [00:51:00] I love France. I love anywhere that the World Cup’s on, or the Olympics or the Super Bowl. So there’s multiple answers.  

AJ Maestas: Anywhere the Super Bowl’s on. 

Luke Bould: Yeah. Well, I was lucky enough to be at Super Bowl 50 in San Francisco Bay area, and that was, that was an awesome week. 

AJ Maestas: Oh yeah. Most people wouldn’t cite that as the pinnacle of Super Bowls. No, I know that. But you’ve been at, Navigate dinner and, I think the Birth of Fun questions that our dinners may have come from your Cricket Australia lunches. So you’ve heard this one, but of, of any person throughout history, someone passed is fine. Anyone living anyone in the world, if you could have one dinner guest one evening, who would  

Luke Bould: you choose? I’d like, yeah, living. I’d love to have, dinner with Sebastian Ko. What he’s done across sport and politics is, is amazing. Is, you know, always incredibly interesting to listen to. And Deb, I’m going to go with, Franklin d Roosevelt. I think anyone who led. The US out, the Great Depression across the Second World War would have some amazing stories to tell. So there’s two,  

AJ Maestas: a Brit and an [00:52:00] American. You heard it here first. That is not going to make you popular, in Australia, but we’ll take it. How about your top passions and hobbies? What do you do when you’re not working?  

Luke Bould: Yeah, I look, I love hanging out with my family. I’ve got a 7-year-old who’s absolutely in love with basketball. So shooting hoops with him is, is one of the great, really enjoyable things that we do. And, you know, we, we can do that for hours. So that watching sport, I enjoy, you know, I enjoy working out by no means an athlete, but, but I enjoy working out and traveling and the balance with working out is eating. I enjoy that too.  

AJ Maestas: Well, are we going to get a chance for your boy to see a game in la? Is he going to see a Lakers game? Or maybe you’ve already achieved this cause. You know, well, who, how long Anthony Davis is there, right? 

Luke Bould: Yeah, that’s exactly right. No, look, I certainly hope so. I mean, you know as soon as we can get on a plane and, and travel again, you know, I’ll, I’ll be on a flight to LA so I certainly hope so. For the moment, we have to enjoy watching him on our ESPN.  

AJ Maestas: Yeah. Fair. Is there a life hack you have, [00:53:00] like, you know, sort of a trick you have that has just incredible impact or ROI relative to the investment you make? You know, so yeah. We’re trying to learn from you here.  

Luke Bould: Yeah, yeah. I do. It’s not unique, but it works for me and it’s, it’s really simple. It’s exercise for me, exercise is my meditation. I’d love to be able to say I can meditate. But I just don’t, but I find when I’m running or when I’m, when I’m working out it, I get relaxed. I calm, I calm down, and I get these amazing thoughts. It kind of supercharges my thinking. Many of my best and most creative thoughts come when I’m running. So that, for me is, is the thing that I get the most out of for the, for the least investment, if you like. And the second thing is reading. I also love reading and learning. So they’re the two. I’ve got two, two answers. I know I’m not filling the brief here, aj, but nonetheless  

AJ Maestas: I have time. And anybody listening this long apparently has time too. So, so, last question, I promise. Best piece of advice you’ve ever received.  

Luke Bould: Yep. Relationships are king. They are everything [00:54:00] and you can only build them by being Bould and listening. You know, being Bould enough to go up and, and speak to people and introduce yourself, and then doing more listening than talking. So that’s the greatest piece of advice I’ve been given.  

AJ Maestas: Well, that’s a good one. I agree with that. It’s the reality of our industry as well. So such a pleasure to be able to catch up with you in this kind of format. And again, just, as a reminder, we’ve been talking with Luke Bould, with Alarcia strategic Management consulting agency based out of Australia with offices in Switzerland and the United States, and really, really enjoyable to spend a little time with you today. So thank you very much.  

Luke Bould: Thanks, AJ. It’s been a pleasure. 

AJ Maestas: Oh, I’ll see you soon, I hope.  

Luke Bould: Absolutely. Good on you. All the best to you and to everyone who’s listened. Thank you. 

AJ Maestas: If you’d like to join the conversation, email us at [00:55:00] INFO@NVGT.com or check out our website @NVGT.com. I’m AJ Maestas. Join us again next week for Navigating Sports Business.