Podcast Alert: Populous – Brian Mirakian

Transcript

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Brian Mirakian: [00:00:00] What we see in all this kind of world of artificial intelligence is that people actually want real experiences. People are going to live sports, they’re going to live concert events at higher rates than we’ve ever seen actually in history. And that is a really good example of fundamentally what people want is they wanna be together.

Jeff Nelson: Welcome to the Navigating Sports Business Podcast, where we uncover insights from the most prominent leaders in our industry. Today I am happy to be joined by Brian Mirakian, a senior principal at Populous. Brian and I first met about five, six years ago. We were doing some work for Populous, and I think Kansas City was one of my first post-COVID trips as we were looking at how to get people back in venues and stadiums of the future and lots of fun stuff, but it was a very weird, masked, [00:01:00] six-feet-apart time.

Not sure if you remember that, Brian, but good to be talking to you in better times.

Brian Mirakian: Yeah, Jeff, great to join you here and so nice to see you as well. Yeah, we are certainly in better times and my goodness, yeah, that was a lot of trepidation at that point in time about whether or not people were going to come back together, and they certainly have.

So it’s really a different outlook certainly on the industry.

Jeff Nelson: Yeah and for those listening and wondering, ventilation, airflow, there were a lot of interesting things back then that people cared a lot about for obvious reasons. But I think most of what we’ll talk about today is more interesting and fun evolutions of design and stadiums and arenas.

Brian you’ve been at Populous 20 years now. How, how– Give us a sense of kind of your role and what that means for the day to d- at what is a seemingly ever-growing, ever-influential firm.

Brian Mirakian: [00:02:00] Yeah. Jeff, yeah, a lot has changed in, in, in 20 years. It’ll actually be 21 years for me in July, so coming up on my 21st anniversary.

And, it’s just been so awesome to, to see really the evolution in the sports and entertainment industry. Our firm has been central, to, to I think a lot of the evolution certainly on the fan experience and built environment world as it pertains to professional sports, live entertainment.

And we’ve evolved as a practice. We have always prided ourself on, on, on places that, that draw people together, communal experiences. And, we’ve, really gone into many different wonderful directions in terms of a coex part of our practice, an aviation part of our practice, urban, placemaking, mixed-use districts, right?

There’s so many sort of elements that continue to evolve. But everything is central really to, to bringing people together and fundamentally what do people want from an entertainment or sports experience. It’s been really exciting to see [00:03:00] behavioral patterns change in many ways.

But in most ways it’s the same, right? People just enjoy common experiences. They enjoy shared moments, right? Me- memories that they, that can be made in these places. And and I don’t think that will ever change candidly. It’s something that, has always been central to our work here at Populous and I think will be central to, people in terms of w- what they really desire as we look into the future.

Jeff Nelson: What are your buildings of present or recent accomplishments? Give us a sense of where you fit in to the broader organization, and what are the highlights? What have you been working on?

Brian Mirakian: It’s w-within my role at the practice, I have a real privilege and good fortune to be able to bridge across multiple segments w-within Populous as a company.

Live entertainment is really the vast majority of projects that I’m involved with, things that are music-centric amphitheater projects live [00:04:00] entertainment venues that are a lot of energy right now in the industry, mid-capacity venues, arenas, but also touching a lot of work in brand activation and things that are really focused on the human experience in our in, in our, in, in our buildings, whether they’re stadiums or ballparks.

And so that’s been really the role for me at Populous over the years is to really bridge into new territories. One of the areas of focus that I led for a number of years was actually digital entertainment and esports, right? When we saw a lot of that wave of activity happening.

But right now, most of my work is really focused on, what is that live en- entertainment experience. And doing a lot of work with Opry Entertainment Group in Nashville on a whole host of projects that they’re involved with. I’m working with Universal Music actually on a hotel property that they’re bringing to to North America.

And and then, assisting in a whole host of other project types that are, brand activation-focused and so it’s a really exciting point in time and really fortunate to have amazing teams [00:05:00] that that I’m collaborating with and and, just a great outlook just i-in general in terms of where the industry’s headed.

Jeff Nelson: How much would it– I know there are a lot of factors, by the way, like the market, what ownership is pushing for, asking for, to your point, how many premium offerings. But at this point now, for our listeners who have not been interviewing architects or in the weeds of trying to build a new stadium or arena For each of an NFL stadium, an NBA or NHL arena, and then a, an MLB stadium what is the rough cost that you should expect now if you’re gonna undertake a- an entirely new building?

Brian Mirakian: Oh gosh, Jeff. That’s– it’s so hard to say, what because each market is so different. Kansas City is a very different market than New York, right? Or Las Vegas. We go through a really [00:06:00] exhaustive pre-con, period with ownership groups to help really establish what those costs should be, right?

We start with a program phase where we sit down and we just understand these are all the drivers in the building. The programming actually follows a pretty exhaustive market study typically, right? Where we’re going in, where we’re trying to understand what do the consumers want in the marketplace?

What are the gaps that we’re trying to fill, right? What is the demand for various different products? What does the seating capacity need to be, right? What are all the, what are all the myriad aspects of, program- architectural programmatic components that need to be factored into the building?

And then once we have a handle on that there’s so many elements that are site specific, right? One site on the waterfront would be very different than a greenfield site or an urban setting, right? It’s- The

Jeff Nelson: pre-construction phase, you meet with these owners. We certainly have had our share of experience with owners, and they are [00:07:00] billionaires who are of many different personality varieties, backgrounds, but they certainly more often than not are used to getting their way and want to get their way.

How do you manage your clients in that pre-construction phase when they have a vision, when they have a lot of different things they want, which I’m assuming might not always be as simple as what they think it is?

Brian Mirakian: At a firm like Populous with, 44 years of institutional knowledge that we’ve built up, thousands of projects, we have a lot of data sets that we can draw from.

And what we bring to the table is design innovation, but we also have a lot of expertise in terms of helping to guide a process. And we learn something from every one of these projects, right? We’ve done 20-plus Major League ballparks, right? You learn something from every single one of those, every single one of those projects.

Every major arena that we do we learn something. Every [00:08:00] NFL stadium that we do, we learn something. And so what we find from our clients is that- Most of them don’t wanna do something that’s been done before, right? They wanna do something new, innovative. They wanna bring something to the market that doesn’t exist.

And so part of it is to help provide direction, but also to help them push boundaries, right? To do something that has not been done, to introduce something new to the marketplace, to create something completely cutting edge, right? And something that allows them to define the market in a very unique and powerful way.

And and it’s a natural– it is a natural kind of part of the exercise that we go through. But we do it in locked arm and we do it together, right? And we make critical decisions along the way. And candidly, we’re really lucky to work with owners that, that are visionary, right?

That wanna push boundaries, right? That wanna bring something new to the marketplace. And it’s our job [00:09:00] and our great privilege and responsibility to, to be their partner in that process. I hope that answers the question.

Jeff Nelson: Yeah. What are the trends that you see or the more and more– you mentioned districts, premium, those are two of the things- Yep

certainly every team is really focused on. But are there other ways that either owners are asking you to push boundaries or that you guys are trying to guide them to push boundaries? Any recent examples of that where you feel like, “Hey, we did push the boundaries. We did do something new here”?

Brian Mirakian: I would say that absolutely, one of the major trends that we’re seeing more and more of is i- is the broader district, right? One of the projects I was very fortunate to be involved with was the Atlanta Braves, development, really the ballpark with Truist Park, and then kinda the early planning stages, the Battery a- as well.

And such a incredible ownership group with a vision to really [00:10:00] contemplate the district and the ballpark simultaneously as one, a- as one project, right? And in those early stages of thinking about how all those components, are connected to each other in terms of, first and foremost the real estate strategy and the urban plan, and to thinking about, the lifestyle component and the retail and a hotel and a workplace dimension and, live entertainment dimension, and how that connected with the ballpark and the way that the ballpark needed to be designed so that there was a seamless connection between the district and the ballpark.

That was something that had not really been done before, right? And so it was a, just an incredible project to be involved with the Braves ownership because they really did have a vision to bring something completely new, in that case to Major League, Baseball.

But, we have You know, barked on so many different, project types in the live entertainment world as well, and, some of the things that we’re [00:11:00] doing with FIFA World Cup and LA ’28 on the Olympics in s- terms of overlay and temporary venues, right? There’s such a wide sort of variety, of project types that we’re involved with, and each one is really trying to solve unique challenges.

But what we see is adaptability, right? Being able to flex between event types have venues, again, that are really dynamic in terms of addressing the needs of the market for their fans of today, their audiences of today, but also looking at the consumer of tomorrow, which is equally as important, if not more.

Because you’re trying to design and build a building that’s going to be a 50-year, lifespan, right? Like, how do you design so that you can future-proof a venue? That’s really critical. And and how do you stay on the forefront of technology, right? Which is ever-changing and maybe accelerating more than we’ve ever seen, candidly.

There’s so many aspects of new forms of technologies- Yeah … that, that need to be incorporated into these [00:12:00] buildings. So we’re at a very critical point in time, I would say, for the future of the industry and the fu- for the future of these venues. But as I mentioned at the outset of the discussion, there’s more demand than ever for a live experience.

Yeah. And and right now there’s so much innovation that’s occurring.

Jeff Nelson: You just teed up five questions I wanna ask- … so I have to think about how to prioritize them. Yeah. But before I forget Because it’s so often talked about in our industry, the Battery in Atlanta and Truist Park, can everybody build that or did they have a confluence of events that made it uniquely perfect there and others just have to figure out what are their, or maybe not events, maybe not confluence of events, but confluence of factors, right?

Traffic flow and the real estate and demographics, things like that. Is that something that everybody can replicate or do you think that’s gonna be unique? [00:13:00]

Brian Mirakian: I think to your point it’s really driven by multiple factors. The land itself, right? Vehicular access, public transit, right?

Depending on your development partners, right? Or if you’re going to, independently develop the entirety of the district alongside the anchor, venue, whether that’s a ballpark or stadium or an arena. There, there’s so many, factors really that, that are at play.

I don’t think that there’s necessarily a hard and fast blueprint that can be applied to every single one of these projects, but I do think it goes back to a really firm real estate strategy, right? And being able to really assist ownership groups with a really fundamental real estate strategy that can test and analyze all these key elements, out of the gate so that, if we take a let’s just call it in round terms in an 80-acre, property, right?

We can go and develop a master plan out of, out, really at the outset that [00:14:00] helps study, tho- those key elements and then from there really support and understand what that acreage can support from a real estate standpoint. You take out the anchor venue, you take out the parking, and then you start to apply all the other programmatic components that, that kind of fit the market and fit the aspirational economicals for that ownership gro- group plus development partners.

That then really helps determine what that development needs, right? And I don’t know that there’s any sort of prescribed blueprint that says every single mixed experience district needs to have these components, right? But what we do know is that for it to be successful in the context of what we’re talking about today, there’s going to be an anchor component, right?

There’s gonna be an anchor venue, right? There’s gonna be some secondary entertainment, right? There’s going to be, some public space that, that’s going to be activated on a seasonal basis. And then it’s really then understanding all the other drivers from there and and really working to create a a customized and very [00:15:00] personalized solution that meets the economic objectives for that ownership group.

Jeff Nelson: Can you think of a reason or an example of why an owner at this point, when looking for the right site for a new ballpark or arena, would not try to find as much acreage as possible to also do a district? Do you think we’ll see any, “Hey, it’s just a stadium,” or, “It’s just an arena,” or, “It’s just a mu-” I- is that– Are those days gone?

Is everybody only gonna pick a site if it has the acreage to do more?

Brian Mirakian: Sure. It’s hard to say, right? I think every ownership group has their own, aspirational goals for how they, economically wanna drive their business. I think in the future there’s– we’re going to see more weight towards the broader, district strategy with an anchor venue probably than not.

But y- it all does come down to [00:16:00] economics, right? It does come down to, how much investment i- is available, right? And and every market is going to be different. Every locale is gonna be different, right? In terms of the availability to land, right? Which is obviously a huge driving factor.

So it’s hard to say percentage-wise, but I do think that moving into the future we certainly see, a major trend unfolding with with districts and a district anchor. But I think that’s to be seen, over the course of the next, five to 10 years.

Jeff Nelson: From a technology perspective The rate of change is so fast. But you can’t just design and then put a venue up in six months, right? It takes a few years. How do you open a building with, quote-unquote, “new technology” when what is new the [00:17:00] day that building opens might look very different than what just a year or two ago you were planning for?

How do, how do- Yeah … the timelines feel like they just wouldn’t sync up in a way that allows you to truly open with, quote-unquote, “new technology.” How do you manage that?

Brian Mirakian: Yeah. I think that you, one, you always have to look into that crystal ball as, as deeply as you can, and that means staying educated, right?

Understanding what are nascent stages of development in the technology world. What may be experimental, candidly, in the technology world. There’s– We’ve worked with a lot of great clients over the years, right? That, that are very savvy, in terms of new and future forms of technology that are in an experimental stage, right?

That are, that are– need investment, right? To get it to the next level because they fit, it fits a certain type of, entertainment demand, right? That needs to be, that, that needs to be [00:18:00] solved for. And there, there is a really important aspect of just being on the forefront of innovation and understanding what’s coming down the line.

Maybe is ma- is being developed, but not quite to the market yet. So there’s that side of things, right? There’s all sorts of elements of technology that allow us to, to, move components in a very seamless way. We have retractable seating systems now that are more seamless in oper- in operability, right?

At a tech level that’s really exciting because we can reconfigure, bowl environments to meet the demands of all sorts of different, event types, in, in a way that we’ve never done before. Programmable lighting, right? Elements, where we can create a dynamic nature to the bowl, so that we’re creating animation, right?

That coincides with music and sound, right? And then on the smart system side, we understand, you know- HVAC control, right? We can understand through sensor-based technologies, where the shortest lines are to concession [00:19:00] stands and restrooms, right? So we can have real-time, digital navigation that’s happening in the venues through, smart systems with wayfinding and signage, right?

So that we can tr- you know, we can drive traffic into areas of the building and create, frictionless experiences, right? We’ve seen so much just major advances just in terms of the economy within these buildings, right? Being, let’s say six years, seven years ago the majority of our buildings were walk-up concession stands.

Now we’re probably splitting half and half with, walk-in, walk-out marketplaces, right? You can go and grab a beer, or a prepackaged item, and you’re out of that marketplace in eight seconds, right? In some cases. And so it’s a frictionless type of technology. It’s a smarter venue.

It’s more, like front-end visibility, right? That we’re trying to stay in, in, in front of, on the audiovisual side. It all comes together. But the venues absolutely are becoming more technology-rich and really providing the– what the consumers are demanding, and that’s [00:20:00] really an exciting thing.

Jeff Nelson: Do teams, organizations now just have to assume there’s a CapEx budget every three years, five years? Is it every year that you have to assume we’re gonna spend money if there is an off-season, this off-season, because there’s a new type of speaker, or there’s always gonna be something that we have to update or upgrade, Yeah

or change?

Brian Mirakian: I think that you’re going into a, certainly a new, a new major building with the expectation that, you’re gonna have years of life, right? It’s hard to say. Is it five, five to 10 years before you, you go in with a major upgrade? Would like to think so, certainly, out, out of the gate.

Where we see a lot of enhancement that occurs in, in, in our buildings in a fairly short-term basis is just understanding if like a premium space needs to be repositioned. There’s always [00:21:00] expectations around performance of certain, premium products.

Oftentimes out, out of the gate, there may be a new corporate partner, right? That is brought in, in, into the fold, right? That maybe wasn’t present, day one. There’s, there, there’s all sorts of elements related to corporate partnerships sponsorship sales, all sorts of things where, you know, where the market can– and these ownership, groups may bring in new partners, right?

And that provides an opportunity to reposition, something within the building. I do think there’s, most of our clients, there’s a healthy CapEx budget, just to, enhance and upgrade the building. But certainly, when you’re talking about, the level of investment out of the gate for one of these buildings, you want the technology to perform for many years, right?

And that’s why you have to be on the front end, right? Of selecting the right type of technology. If there are things that are changing with Wi-Fi, or DAS or different delivery models that are happening outside of our control, with, the major, technology providers. Okay.

Apple has a radical shift in [00:22:00] technology, right? The consumer’s bringing a different device into the building, and you need to support that differently, then you address those things, right? But what we try to do is we focus on the things that we can control, and we work on the delivery to the best of our ability, to meet the demands of our ownership groups.

And but we certainly anticipate a life cycle that, that is, you know, five, seven years, certainly 10 years, something along those lines

Jeff Nelson: It’s just occurring to me that I think it’s against the rules to talk about technology without talking about AI. So I think I’m, yeah, contractually obligated to ask how that is factoring into how you think about technology in a new building these days.

Brian Mirakian: Yeah. The way that we think about AI is on a couple different fronts. We, as a design firm, we think for the most part, we’re really excited about the way that we can utilize artificial [00:23:00] intelligence on a design side of the ledger. And when I say that the way that we can think about expanding a creative canvas, right?

In really new exciting ways for our clients. And so that’s a start, right? How as designers and as a world-leading design firm can we harness artificial intelligence? I think that we’re all learning, right? There, there’s a very important level of experimentation that’s happening right now, but we’re really, I think across the board, really optimistic about the way that we can expand this creative landscape, right?

To shape, new environments, right? For our clients. I think on the artificial intelligence side, I’d also go back to what I mentioned about smart buildings. Smarter buildings, right? It’s technology that’s gonna allow the buildings to become smarter, right? We’re going to be able to analyze more data more quickly, right?

To make the buildings operate more efficiently, right? To be able to, harness this, this– all this robust data that we have access [00:24:00] to and create a much smarter, more efficient, better operated building. And for our clients, that’s a really, I think, exciting new frontier. Aside from that, I just say at a philosophical level, what we see in all this kinda world of artificial intelligence is that people actually want real experiences.

You’re surrounded by artificiality every day, right? We’re surrounded by artificiality in the way that we consume virtually everything from a media perspective and, like on our mobile device and a million different places, we’re surrounded by artificiality. What people really want are real experiences, right?

And we see that empirically, right? People are going to live sports, they’re going to live concert events at higher rates than we’ve ever seen actually in history. And that is a really good example of fundamentally what people want is they wanna be together. They wanna be together for shared human experiences where they can create memories, [00:25:00] right?

And so artificial intelligence is it’s a great topic to explore, but just as importantly, it’s understanding what people really want, and that’s to be together for human moments of shared experience.

Jeff Nelson: Thinking back to five or six years ago when I first met you and we were all together in Kansas City, I think even then, you were talking about the future and what could be and the change that could be made.

Is there anything that you’ve kinda had a vision for that we just don’t have the technology or the materials or like it– We don’t have the ability to create it yet, but someday you’re really excited about, “Man, if we could just do this.”

Brian Mirakian: I think that– Man, that’s such a good question. I think that we have this amazing convergence of entertainment and culture, right?

Things that are- I think just like bringing people together in such [00:26:00] a, unique way. Artists are closer to audiences, athletes are closer to fans than maybe ever before. I think what I’m excited by is how do we allow people to really fundamentally feel what’s happening on that field of play?

How does it feel to be Taylor Swift when she’s, s- standing on a stage in front of 90,000 people? How do we do that? How do– H- And how can we create a building that not only allows you to have some amazing spectator experience, but fundamentally allows you to have a behavioral experience that, that simulates what it’s like to be Messi on that pitch in a World Cup match in the 90th minute with the game on the line.

There are so many things that I’m really looking forward to in terms of like how do we create a more enhanced experiential condition between an audience or a fan and an athlete and [00:27:00] an artist. And to me, like that’s where this world is headed. I go back to it, to where we started the conversation.

It’s fundamentally about a human experience, right? Something more than you can do in your home environment- … sitting in your living room, right? That’s what these buildings have the opportunity to be. It’s what these places have the opportunity to be, these broader districts- … that allow you to come and enjoy this time and be with people that you love people that you know are part of your family and part of your friend group.

And when you go inside and you experience that event, you are more close than ever. And I think that’s the thing that excites me the most about where we’re headed.

Jeff Nelson: Yeah. That– some sort of biometric- Yeah … about, yeah. That would be cool to feel like Messi. Let me wrap up here with some rapid-fire questions.

You can be as brief as you’d like on these. The most underrated venue in sports and entertainment is?

Brian Mirakian: Ryman Auditorium in Nashville. It’s intimate, right? Broadway in [00:28:00] Nashville. If you ask an artist though, w- if they would like to play in one place in their career, many people say they’d like to play Ryman Auditorium.

And major, and some major acts en- enjoy playing there too ’cause it’s really small and intimate, but I love that building. It’s great.

Jeff Nelson: Okay, cool. I gotta get there then.

Brian Mirakian: Yeah …

Jeff Nelson: if you could get hired to renovate an existing stadium or arena, what would the dream project be and why?

Brian Mirakian: Moda Center in in Portland.

That would be an awesome project- What- … to be able to renovate.

Jeff Nelson: What’s your biggest- … pet peeve when you attend a game as a fan?

Brian Mirakian: I think one of the biggest pet peeves is, just congestion and not being able to get from point to point in a building because there’s barriers, right? That’s one of my biggest pet, pet peeves is, I wanna have, and I think everyone wants to have the access to everything. And and not having barriers that, that restrict access that’s, that, that’s a pet peeve of mine.

Jeff Nelson: All right, two more here. W- one meal in Kansas City, where are you going?

Brian Mirakian: I would [00:29:00] go to Kansas City Joe’s barbecue.

Jeff Nelson: Classic. Good answer.

Brian Mirakian: You need to go.

Jeff Nelson: A- and la- last question, to anybody listening who wants to be you, who wants to be that great designer in sports and entertainment, just starting out, changing careers, wherever they might be, what’s one piece of advice to success in design?

A design career, I should say.

Brian Mirakian: I just say dream big. Dream big, and and have a non-failure mindset, right? Ultimately, a career is defined by so many facets, but ultimately it’s continuing on, right? And ultimately staying true to a vision and and staying true to wanting to do good things for the world.

That’s the biggest thing that I think drives any- anyone with a successful career.

Jeff Nelson: Good stuff. Populous certainly dreams big. I know you do. And very grateful to work with you guys [00:30:00] and always very impressed by the work you do. So thank you for building the venues that we get to experience those live events in, and thanks for joining us today.

Brian Mirakian: Thank you, Jeff. Really appreciate the conversation.

Jeff Nelson: For our listeners, if you have any questions or comments, please feel free to reach out to us. My email is Jeff@NVGT.com. You can always connect with me on my personal LinkedIn or the Navigate page as well. Again, this is Jeff Nelson with Navigate, joined by Brian Mirakian.

Thank you for joining us on Navigating Sports Business.