Podcast Alert: Sarah Hirshland- USOPC

Transcript

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[00:00:00] Sarah Hirshland: It is our opportunity to remind this country why we love sport. And we will spend the next six years getting ready and building to that place. To me, every young American should walk away from those games, seeing themselves in one of the athletes, in those games.

[00:00:33] AJ Maestas: Hello and Welcome to the Navigating Sports Business podcast. I’m your host, aJ Maestas, Founder of Navigate, a data-driven consulting firm, guiding major strategies and decisions in sports and entertainment. We started this podcast hoping to share the interesting stories and experiences of the amazing people we get to work with at Navigate.

And even though they’re visionaries and famous in many instances, their true stories aren’t often heard since they’re not on the playing field. Our hope is you get to know them better and [00:01:00] learn from them as we have.

Today, I’m happy to be joined by Sarah Hirshland CEO at the USOPC. Thank you very much for joining us, Sarah.

[00:01:15] Sarah Hirshland: It’s great to be with you.

[00:01:16] AJ Maestas: Yeah, likewise, it’s been a really long time. I don’t even expect you to remember this, but, uh, when we first met, you were one of the only senior executives, women in sports that I had met.

That’s kind of how the world was back then. It was, um, not so long after OnSport had sold to Wasserman. I don’t know if that rings a bell. I don’t expect you to remember that, but it’s been quite awhile.

[00:01:35] Sarah Hirshland: I do remember and it has been quite awhile and congratulations to you for the great success of what you’ve done.

It’s been fun to watch your business grow.

[00:01:42] AJ Maestas: Oh, well, thank you. I feel very lucky and we know there’s a lot of luck in this and I feel very lucky. Likewise congratulations to you too. It had to be fun to work in golf, and with your husband. And it just has to be fun effecting the global games as you are now as the CEO of the USOPC, by the way, Paralympic is obviously a part of it.

I’m so [00:02:00] old school that I always used to say, USOC. Do you mind educating me and everyone who’s listening because, uh, this is an honest confusion for me with the LA games and all the different organizing committees and definitions. Can you tell me where the lines sort of begin and end with the USOPC versus LA28?

[00:02:17] Sarah Hirshland: Yeah, absolutely. And it is confusing. You can think of our organization under the auspices of both the International Olympic Committee and the International Paralympic Committee, both global bodies with membership of a hundred, to 200 different countries. And we are affectionately referred to as a national Olympic committee or a national Paralympic committee.

So I have 205 peers around the world. Each of us are responsible for fielding the team. For the Olympic or Paralympic games for our country. Um, so, you know, I say very simply our job is to put the team on the field of play representing the United States. Conversely, when a country has the opportunity or in this case, a city like Los [00:03:00] Angeles to host the games, you create an organizing committee.

And so what LA28 is, is actually an independent organization that is built and created to host and operate the Los Angeles games. So they are actually, you know, you can think of it very simply as the event organizers for the games and we are the organization that will field the United States team in those games, just as we will, any other games. At the same time, there’s a lot more overlap between an organizing committee and the national Olympic committee when the games is in your country, because you start to think about collaboration from a commercial and revenue generating perspective.

So LA is also a very critical business partner of ours, even though we have ultimately different roles in the LA28 games.

[00:03:47] AJ Maestas: Okay. And I would love to know where that, that line is just cause you know, most of Navigate’s work is, I think we’ve worked with 13 Olympic entities, but that’s counting everything. Right.

That’s broadcasters, IOC, et cetera. Where is that line with USOPC deals [00:04:00] versus LA deals? Like are they selling in a quadrennial or two quadrennials or I always remember back in the day, working with Lisa Baird and her team right on, on when there was no sign of a domestic games coming anytime soon.

[00:04:11] Sarah Hirshland: That’s right.

So, so essentially what happened is when we were granted the games, we created a joint venture entity that is truly a joint venture between our organization and LA28. That is US Olympic and Paralympic Properties. Or affectionately USOPP. And that entity is sort of the marketing arm, um, and the revenue generating arm of both of our organizations collectively.

So we have a third legal entity that is actually operating to sell against the rights for both entities at the same time. So we are not selling one and selling another. There is actually a joint venture company that’s selling on behalf of both entities for the dual quad, really that eight year period.

That’s now a six year period leading into LA.

[00:04:56] AJ Maestas: Okay. Thank you. Super helpful. Um, I’m sure someone needed to know [00:05:00] that if I needed to know that. So that’s helpful. So you’re the CEO of the USOPC. You’re also the president of the Panam Sports Marketing and TV Commission. What are some of the key things you’re focusing on when it comes to TV rights and exposure for international competition?

[00:05:14] Sarah Hirshland: Yeah, so many of us, as you can imagine, serve in these are volunteer roles in supporting the global movement. So Panam is our continental region that the, the international movement is broken into five continents. Panam is our region, 41 countries. North, South America, Central America, the Carribean. And in that region, we have this really cool thing called the Pan American Games and the Parapan Games.

Um, and so the, the motion or the, the impetus, if you will, for the Panam Marketing and TV Commission is driving the commercial side for the Panam Games. And that’s where predominantly our focus lives in that work. And the Panam games always happen. Um, one year in advance of the summer games on its rotation.

So we’ll have a Panam games coming up in [00:06:00] 2023 in Santiago, Chile, which will be a lot of fun.

[00:06:03] AJ Maestas: Oh, nice. Uh, I love Chile, amazing country. I hope you get to spend some time in Patagonia as a part of that. I assume you’re going to be down there a bunch. Is there anything going on with that, where there’s going to be a commercial entity.

I remember there was talk years ago. I know it predates your time at the USOPC, but about a direct to consumer television product or a paid TV product. Is there, is there anything we can expect coming up?

[00:06:25] Sarah Hirshland: There actually is today a Panam Sports Channel, and that Panam Sports Channel has been created really, probably over the last couple of years. We hope as we come into this Panam Games, will be a little bit of a sort of coming out party if you will, for that entity. Now, as you can imagine, when you look at the continental region, you’re talking about three predominant languages, English, Spanish, and Portuguese across the region, and obviously 41 different countries of distribution.

So the distribution of content from that games is a relatively complex ecosystem. Very different [00:07:00] markets when you’re looking at South America versus North America, et cetera. So there are a lot of distribution channels, but Panem sports has built any is operating its own Panam channel.

[00:07:09] AJ Maestas: Okay. Excellent. My apologies. I should have known that. And just one more clarification, then you’re also a member of the IOC Olympic Program Commission. I need you to tell us, like me, and everybody who’s listening. What that exactly is. What role is that for you?

[00:07:22] Sarah Hirshland: Yeah, a very different one. Also an international role.

Also a volunteer role. A commission is basically a group of us from around the world. Um, and the IOC’s Program Commission is the body that’s really charged with determining what sits on the program from a sport perspective. So there are three layers of that. What sports are on the program and then the disciplines within the sports and then the individual events.

So you can think about something like aquatics, and then open water swimming and then the 5,000 meter or the 10,000 meter would be different events. So there are layers. Um, and as you can imagine, over 17 days of Olympic competition, you’re [00:08:00] talking about hundreds of events across, you know, more than 30 sports and a number of disciplines.

So it’s quite a complicated ecosystem. And the motivation of the IOC program commission is always driven by creating the greatest value for the games. Um, how do we put a product that’s a great experience for athletes, that is current with what sport is around the globe. Looking for as we call it universality, um, the most countries that are going to be competitive in a sport, um, and ensuring that there is, you know, diversity of opportunity around the world.

Also ensuring that you’re focused on the younger generation and the more modern and current sports. So you’ve seen things like skateboarding surfing, sport climbing some of these sports, certainly snowboard on the, on the winter side became a very important addition to the program. So that is the body that works on determining what’s going to show up on our screens, if you will, when the games come to play.

[00:08:55] AJ Maestas: And at any sneak peek you can give us on pending changes because, [00:09:00] you know, I think of it, it’s hard not to be ethnocentric as an American, but I think about like things I want to see, right? Like the debate on softball, it’s such a great TV product.

I love college softball. I love what’s happening right now the World Series. And it’s just one of those things where, but you also recognize who else around the world is realistically, you know, playing. So I don’t know any, any sneak, peeks, or opinions you’re willing to share on what’s coming in?

[00:09:21] Sarah Hirshland: You know what, I’ll tell you is the good news is they gather a lot, an awful lot of data.

And so the decisions are made. Somewhat scientifically, if you will, around popularity participation rates, universality a huge focus, and I give the IOC of massive amount of credit on gender equality. They have now reached gender equality on the summer side and are advancing that very significantly on the winter side.

So they’re ensuring that as they think about what that program looks like that the opportunities for women are the same as they are for men. We are just about to finalize the program for what will be the 2026 Milano Cortina games for the winter. Um, and then shortly thereafter, um, that this timeline is certainly not a [00:10:00] sneak peek.

It’s very public, but next summer, in, um, 2023, summer 2023, we’ll finalize that program for LA28, which you can imagine is very important to all of us.

[00:10:10] AJ Maestas: Yes, yes, of course. Yeah. I think everybody’s pretty excited with World Cup and the Olympics summer games coming to the United States. And even if you’re not in the business of sports, you know, you have to think of that as a showcase opportunity for our country.

And Italy will be amazing, right? That, that will be pretty incredible, which I think the winter games need. I don’t even know if I’ve told you this before, but we’ve been working with the US Ski and Snowboard Association and it’s, I don’t have to tell you the medal count is down, you know, and it, it is the premier winter sort of organizing entity and then the games and everything with Beijing so, very hopeful that we can get the winter games back to a more prominent place. It’s really a shame. I grew up in Alaska. So you can probably guess that the things I was paying attention to for the first 18 years of my life were the winter games. Interesting. Any, any comment on softball for the summer games?

[00:10:56] Sarah Hirshland: So what’s interesting is softball as most [00:11:00] sports are, the interesting thing to think about with softball is the male equivalent, right? As I said, there’s a lot of gender equity. So softball and baseball come as a package. That gets tricky, um, based on the relative dynamics with Major League Baseball. And, and I will say, you know, that’s really the challenge.

Number one is one of the really important criteria as you look at the Olympic program is there is no more capacity to grow the games. The footprint is monstrous. The logistics are monstrous. Right now, the summer games is 10,500 athletes. And then you add coaches, physical therapists, sports medicine, you know, all of the professionals that come with that.

And the footprint is really at its maximum capacity that any city could realistically host. And so as you look at the program, we’re at a place now, whereas I describe it. It’s the closet principle one in one out. So if you’re going to add, you also have to take away. So baseball and softball, um, as big team sports, you’re adding [00:12:00] an awful lot of athletes that have to come from somewhere.

Tokyo made those decisions. Paris did not put baseball and softball back on the program. So softball is actually the very, very unlucky recipient of a seesaw here where they’ve been in. They’ve been out, they’ve been in, they’ve been out. Been really challenging for that sport over the course of time and will continue to be challenging.

Um, one because of the numbers of the footprint, and two, because of the tie to baseball and just the realities of the dynamic with Major League Baseball.

[00:12:29] AJ Maestas: Ah, that, that breaks my heart just because I enjoy it as a fan, but also just right before COVID I got to attend, uh, I think it was Japan versus Korea in the World Baseball Classic in the Tokyo Dome, it was just electric.

I don’t know if you’ve had the chance to,

[00:12:43] Sarah Hirshland: Both our baseball and our softball teams in Tokyo last summer was awesome to see. And in both matches, we were playing Japan.

[00:12:52] AJ Maestas: Perfect. And then, you know what I’m talking about, right? Like there, there isn’t a baseball atmosphere in the United States that can match how they feel about, you know, how [00:13:00] Taiwan and Korea and Japan feel about baseball.

And since the population, half the world’s population in Asia and all that stuff, just, uh, that one kills me as far as those sports that are very clearly American and exported, but it just feels like it has its place. Okay, you’re going to hate this question. So don’t, don’t be mad at me here, but, um, but I would love to know what you make of all the, the doping scandals in, in the Olympics.

[00:13:21] Sarah Hirshland: Yeah. I mean, it’s really, AJ, it’s really simple. It’s just fundamentally unacceptable. There is nothing more important to sport than the integrity of the competition. And when that gets compromised, for any reason, you have lost your way. And so doping, is a very real issue in sport around the world.

It’s a real issue at all levels, unfortunately, and there are certainly sports where the culture of doping has been more accepted than others. Undoubtedly, there are certain countries where the culture of doping has been more accepted than others. I’m proud that our country is in a place where, you know, we don’t have a tolerance policy.

We have an incredible domestic anti-doping agency, [00:14:00] and I won’t sit here and tell you that there are not American athletes who dope, but we have a really good system in place to make sure that they’re going to get caught in and weeded out of the system. And that we hold ourselves to a really high standard that unfortunately is not the case everywhere in the world.

[00:14:15] AJ Maestas: Right, right. You know, um, I can’t remember if it was 60 minutes or where I saw it, but it was, it felt to me like it was a reputable report and it was about, you know, the egregious steps that, uh, Russia had taken, you know, and it was just, I mean, just old school things and it was just so supported. It was just crazy.

I had a breakfast a few years ago with Dick Pound, who I’m sure, you know. You know, dedicated his life to anti-doping and he took me through the give and the take and how these cheaters just they’re always, you know, the incentive they’re always a step ahead. So is there a time in which you can see a level playing field for U.S. athletes versus the rest of the world?

Or will this always be a game of catching up?

[00:14:51] Sarah Hirshland: I think we’ve come a long way already. And I think just in the last handful of years, there have been some meaningful changes [00:15:00] that are beginning to be implemented. So I won’t say that we’re feeling the ultimate impacts of those changes just yet, but I can see them coming and that in and of itself is going to make a real difference.

So that’s positive. Will we ever be in a place where there’s, there’s no doping in sport? I don’t know, because, you know, as, as we say all the time in a lot of areas, the really good bad guys are always in front of the system. There are always going to be somebody who’s figured out how to be in front of the system, the challenge is, how do you get as close on their tails as you can?

And how do you minimize the numbers of those as much as you can? And certainly, we invest, we are partners with some of the major professional sports organizations in an entity called the Partnership for Clean Competition. And that is really about research and development, continuing to advance testing technology and testing science, um, to try to get ahead of catching the next, the next innovation in how to get away with doping, if you will.

That’s [00:16:00] real. Um, we’ll continue to invest in it. We’ll continue to champion it. We’ll continue to advocate for it. We have a lot of peers around the world who feel the same. First of all, there are absolutely more clean athletes today then there have been, and there are more clean athletes today than there are dopers.

And so we, we can’t lose sight of the good that is out there, but we got to keep at it.

[00:16:21] AJ Maestas: I appreciate you framing it that way. Cause you can imagine how someone who’s not an expert just thinks, hey, it’s probably more widespread than ever before. Right. You know that they can’t see it against the timeline of history and it is so frustrating, I wish I could cite where I read or saw this information.

But obviously you’re an expert in this so you’ll know what I’m talking about. You can clarify if I’m messing this up, but, uh, it was around, I think FIFA and the Russia World Cup. It was statements from senior leaders in FIFA that were basically, we’re not going to mess this up for our host. You know, we’re not going to screw up a domestic games or Russia, even though it was just blatantly obvious. It’s disheartening.

I mean, you know, you grow up believing the world is meritocratic and sports is such a beautiful meritocracy. Right. And [00:17:00] in true performance, but for situations like this. So anyway, I’m not trying to lay it at your feet. It’s just hard not to think about cause you watch the U.S. And you watch the medal count and you can see China that day is coming right.

Where we’re going to lose the medal count.

[00:17:14] Sarah Hirshland: No, I’m not going to give that.

[00:17:17] AJ Maestas: Yeah, good. Good. Yeah, there you go.

[00:17:19] Sarah Hirshland: I reject that, I will not support that projection.

[00:17:23] AJ Maestas: Okay, good, good then. But it’s anecdotal anyway, so hopefully I’m wrong.

I was going to ask you about these, um, like Netflix Drive to Survive. We put out a blog post, you know, it was like tons of value for the sponsors.

There was a significant and measurable lift in particular in the United States in fandom, but really globally, there’s this talk of the PGA Tour or Tour de France, maybe even the NFL doing one of those. Is there anything like that that you think we’ll get to see around the Olympics? Maybe even the U.S. Game?

[00:17:47] Sarah Hirshland: It’d be super fun, wouldn’t it?

I’d love to, having now been in this role for four years and having watched a cycle of both our, our summer and our winter teams uh, go through what they go through to train and go through the preparations. [00:18:00] And the game times experiences. It is the most compelling and inspirational place I can imagine spending time to watch.

So the opportunity to share that real story beyond just the competition with the American people is something that I’d love nothing more than to do.

[00:18:16] AJ Maestas: I’m glad to hear you say that, you know, we’ve done broadcaster work and you know, the Olympics skew really high in education, income skew toward women.

There’s this sort of cause based philanthropic thing we see, you know, in giving where it attracts a different person in a different sort of motivation, uh, in our research, unfortunately it’s overstated. People will say they care about, you know, a brand giving money to a cause far more than their actions show that versus let’s say sponsoring a sports team.

But with that said, the Olympics are the beautiful intersection of that, right? Where there’s this, uh, most people actually can’t articulate what the Olympic program is. You know what the, you know, the idea of world peace and the intent of what the Olympics are, but they know it anyway. So even though they don’t know it, like as in a marketing slogan, they feel that that is a part of them watching the [00:19:00] games and being a part of it. So there’s, there’s so many cool elements there that I hope your, what or our listeners can’t see is that your face was revealing that it’s maybe in the works. Cause I hope so because the storytelling on people and the path to get there, especially for Paralympic athletes will be awesome.

Right. That will be some, uh, tear-jerking stuff. If you can actually make that happen, please do. I mean the storytelling, right? The Olympics and the storytelling is way different than your average sport.

[00:19:25] Sarah Hirshland: No question. And I, and I think what’s lost on a lot of us because we have historically turned on the Olympics every four years is the journey, the journey to get there.

And sometimes even the journey between games. I mean, we have some athletes who go to multiple games. Most athletes only ever compete in a single games, but the journey to get there and the stories, and then what actually happens on the ground, you know, outside of what the screens tend to show, um, it’s all interesting.

And, and the good news is you, you know, this better than I. We live in a world today where in a lot of cases, the athletes get to tell these stories themselves through the lens of their eyes. And, and that’s fun. It’s fun to see because their [00:20:00] personalities and their lives are as diverse as those of the American people more broadly.

Um, and so it’s really fun to see how two people can seemingly have a very similar journey and yet nothing could be further from the truth.

[00:20:12] AJ Maestas: Yeah. It’s an even more important element of it because we’re talking about, I know that there’s, uh, there’s endless global competitions, you know, a performance it’s pretty extreme, even relative to sports.

Talk about a short and rare moment on a stage that you have a couple of weeks, right? And for some people, a couple of seconds and a, their whole career is defined. If you don’t mind me asking about LA28, it’s hard not to, coming to here to the U.S. Um, is there anything you’re looking forward to anything that stands out to you in this role about what LA means to the United States and to the USOPC?

[00:20:44] Sarah Hirshland: It’s a huge moment that this country hasn’t had since 1996. And so, you know, we can’t underestimate the impact of a home games on sport period in the country. It is our opportunity to remind [00:21:00] this country why we love. And we will spend the next six years getting ready and building to that place. To me, every young American should walk away from those games, seeing themselves in one of the athletes in those games.

That doesn’t mean that I expect every young American to be an athlete, but I do think that there’s opportunity because of the breadth, because of the diversity and because of the competition and the human performance component. Everybody can walk away and be inspired by something that they see in those games and find something that’s interesting and speaks to them on a personal level.

And that’s exactly what these games will do. And so the opportunity there is one that I don’t think any of us take for granted. And, you know, as someone in my role, there are not a lot of CEOs of, of the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic committee that get to have our own games. The last one was 30 years or will be 30 years ago.

It’s a great gift. And I feel really, [00:22:00] really blessed to be in a position to help get this organization ready for what that means and to bring that team forward and help the team itself understand the power of the impact they can make for sport in this country over the long-term. It will do amazing things to reinvigorate that love that we have of sport for sport’s sake.

[00:22:19] AJ Maestas: Yeah, we’re trying to find a way at Navigate where we contribute to the rising tide of what is, you know, health and wellness through sport. You look at global statistics on participation for, uh, young girls. You know, you look at health and wellness metrics, you know, here in the United States, you know, we are increasingly obese and sedentary.

I guess what I’m just trying to say that I buy into that, you know, I think that’s, it’s extremely meaningful, right? All those, the message of sports and the stage in which we stand on is something I think we squander, you know, when we look at our big five sports leagues and you think of stick and ball sports, of course they all have a charity element, but you know, is that really the message people receive versus the true intent of the Olympic movement.

I hope that is a step forward for the U.S. [00:23:00] And same with World Cup as well. Right? And the global game of football coming to the U.S. I feel like those are global stages and opportunities for the country to take health and wellness and sport and everything serious. I hope that’s true. And I hope there’s a way to amplify that and, uh, contribute to that.

Cause something feels off. Maybe that’s the skeptic in me, but something feels off. I’m not talking about with the Olympics. I’m just talking about the U.S. Sports participation, kids isolating into playing one sport, concentrating, et cetera, et cetera, travel teams. There’s just something there that is lost my opinion.

[00:23:27] Sarah Hirshland: And the other thing I would comment on is it’s not only about physical health and wellness. It’s also about a lot of aspects of mental health and frankly, just some fundamental principles of contentment and happiness that come through the things that we learned through sport. Um, and a lot of that we saw really play out over the last few years during COVID around resilience. And sport teaches us resilience, unlike most things.

And so that’s such an important life lesson, and it’s such a powerful tool when we are in tough times and to be able to draw upon. And so [00:24:00] I am a very, very deep believer in the participation in sport, not just for the fun of it, although let’s not lose the fun of it, but also for the sort of residual benefits physically and mentally and socially.

It’s a very, very powerful tool that, that I, too worry, we’ve taken a little bit for granted.

[00:24:18] AJ Maestas: Yeah. I appreciate you mentioning that. I just read a book on happiness that I’ll link to in case people want to see the notes, but, uh, it was, it was basically rooting happiness in resiliency and that bounce back, and sort of that strength.

It’s one of the leading researchers on this topic. I think she’s out of that positive psychology program at Penn and diet. Your comments triggered diet for me, when you think of full health and wellness, the story of these athletes is physical activity, including attention to diet and quality food.

So yeah, hopefully there can be some amazing storytelling on that subject. I hope you don’t mind another question you’re probably not going to love, but one of the things you always hear about is the cost of the games, and the cost of the, you know, when you think of the legacy of these facilities and you see these price tags, these [00:25:00] skyrocketing price tags around the world, do you mind sharing what the IOC and even individual Olympic committees can do to get those costs down for a host city?

[00:25:08] Sarah Hirshland: Yeah. Well, and, and, you know, we talked a bit earlier about the program and the reality that that is now at a place where it’s fixed and in fact it grew and then has now started to shrink, um, because that footprint and the costs had gotten just out of a sustainable place. And so as the program has come back to this sort of hard and fast, 10,500 athletes, one of the other pieces of the puzzle as you look at sport opportunities is what is the cost and complexity of an individual sport?

What does it take to put on these competitions? What is the bill? What is the infrastructure. How many days of competition, what is the broadcast cost around production? And so all of those are factors that are being really looked at and thought about to ensure that as you’re putting together a program for the Olympic games, it [00:26:00] is a program that an organizing committee can say, we can make this work.

We can make that investment. They are going to be thinking about, and particularly in Los Angeles, where we have a 100% privately funded games, just as we, as a, an Olympic and Paralympic committee are a hundred percent privately funded, unlike everywhere else in the world, where there is a significant amount of government funding, we have to earn all of our dollars.

They have to earn all of their dollars. And so in doing that, it also requires an incredible focus on balancing revenue opportunities with the expense. And you can look at that holistically and you can look at it sport by sport and event by event. And that’s exactly what the IOC and all of the organizing committees are doing.

[00:26:44] AJ Maestas: Well. I think LA has a good chance to be a good example here, right? I mean, some facilities will be dating back to, you know, whatever 80, a hundred years ago. When, when was, when was the first games?

[00:26:54] Sarah Hirshland: 36 or 34, something like that.

[00:26:56] AJ Maestas: It sounds right. To me. It could be a good example, but that’s the benefit of being in [00:27:00] a 20 million person city, you know, there’s all these great existing facilities. And what have you.

One more business question. I promise here. Do you mind sharing what the top priority is for the USOPC and for yourself?

[00:27:09] Sarah Hirshland: Yeah. Look, we have a, I’ll say we have three very clear and specific priorities. Number one is supporting our elite athletes holistically. Right? Our mission is to be the best in the world and to be the best in the world, we have to provide holistic support to our athletes.

So that is about driving performance through both competitive advantages and through holistic wellbeing of our athletes. And so that’s priority number one and, and will always be at the forefront of what we’re. Priority number two is really about advancing sport, trying to ensure a safe, fair, inclusive sport environment.

We’ve got to do our job at running sport effectively, efficiently, and providing the right kind of culture in sport, not just our organization, but at the community writ large. And then the third priority is about growing our community. How do we ensure that tomorrow’s young people love the Olympics? As much as our [00:28:00] grandparents love the Olympics, how do we ensure that young people with disabilities see themselves in our Paralympians and understand the opportunity that they too can be athletes?

Um, so it’s really about the growth of that community that as you know, fuels long-term health and sustainability for the, for the whole ecosystem.

[00:28:18] AJ Maestas: All right. Thank you. I appreciate that. I honestly, I didn’t know those three points. I probably should have. If you don’t mind me asking you one question outside of the Olympics, you spent so many years in the golf business from the agency side, from the USGA.

Do you have any fun predictions or insights or is there anything, you know, with everything that’s going on in the golf world right now, I’d love to hear if you have an opinion if you were, maybe the czar was golf, what, what you would be doing.

[00:28:41] Sarah Hirshland: You know, it’s funny, it’s obviously it’s always easier to be the backseat driver, right?

When you’re not in it to say, this is what I would do. So, I’ll swing at that pitch. If I were the czar of golf and I had all the money in the world, I would create a mixed men and women’s golf organization, entity, culture. [00:29:00] Young people today have a very different sensitivity to gender than what most of us grew up with.

And sport has been built on gender divided lines for so long. Um, but as a woman who has played golf for 25 years, I would say 99% of the rounds of golf I’d have played for 25 years are with men. And it’s time for men and women to be integrated in the sport. And I think the best way to do that in the best way to grow the game is by integrating the men’s and women’s professional games, uh, in a fun way.

And I get all kinds of, I mean, I debate this all the time with people when I get all kinds of excuses of why it doesn’t work. And I haven’t found one yet that I think is real.

[00:29:36] AJ Maestas: I think that is such a good idea. It’s so true. Right. And I’m not from like a country club type background so I can feel, and I’m sure it doesn’t compare to a lady in the slightest, but I can feel, you know, sort of the rules and the games and the dress and the, you know, some of the things that just in the last 20 years where rules are accepted or who could be wearing what, and it seems ridiculous, like archaic.

That is such a good idea. And by the [00:30:00] way, the gen Z stuff you were referring to, or the next generation, we have a study, you can go to Navigate’s webpage and have it for free. We have a pretty cool gen Z study that affirms what you’re saying, the next generation, if you just happen to not have gen Z people in your life. It is very clear. Those walls are down. Even self-identification of somewhere on the scale of fluidity and sexuality is gone from 5% to 15%. Obviously, biologically that didn’t change in one generation, that’s a lot of changing minds and that’s by the way of gen Z versus millennials and older folks.

So this isn’t sort of like comparing baby boomers to gen Z, gen Z being about age 25 to 12 roughly right now. So yeah, you’re talking about being on point. How ridiculous will it look to this next generation, the way that we handle golf,

[00:30:44] Sarah Hirshland: All due respect, as I said, it’s easy to be a backseat driver. So I have a lot of respect for the people running golf.

It’s a fragmented system and it’s complicated, but I hope somebody figures that out

[00:30:53] AJ Maestas: Well, and look at tennis as an example, you know, another country club sport. I mean, look at, look at the progress. Look at the [00:31:00] success for women on a global pay and for equality and compensation. So there’s a path very clearly.

[00:31:06] Sarah Hirshland: There’s a path. Although I will say, I also think the changing gender consciousness will also be one of the most complicated issues for those of us in sport over the next decade or two, because our world was built on a very clear line between male and female. And as that changes, it is going to change the way we think about sport.

And it will be challenging for all of us to figure out how to adapt to that properly.

[00:31:28] AJ Maestas: Yeah, that’s a very good point.

[00:31:30] Sarah Hirshland: But as I’ve said to many, sport has for literally hundreds of years found a way to create level playing fields. Done it over and over and over again because at the heart of competition.

And I remind people all the time, if you put 10 kids on a piece of grass or in a gym and gave them a stick and ball, the first thing they do would be to figure out rules to make it fair. It is the fundamental aspect of what sport is about, and as long as we recognize that and don’t lose sight of it, we will figure this out.

[00:31:57] AJ Maestas: Yeah. Well, again, I’m glad that’s not my [00:32:00] job. I hope it’s not your job. And it sounds like it’s not technically. But to wrap things up. I’d love to ask you just four rapid fire questions. Just fun stuff to get to know you better. Favorite place you’ve ever traveled for work?

[00:32:12] Sarah Hirshland: Oh, well I have to say right now I get a lot of opportunity to go to Lausanne, Switzerland.

That’s where the IOC is headquarted. It’s a really beautiful place. I’ll go with that.

[00:32:21] AJ Maestas: I love doing the Geneva, get in there and then take the train. And then I, I like make a point to go to Zurich afterwards because of all of the sport entities that are there. So you get to, uh, it’s just the most unbelievable the lake and the mountains, and very cool.

Very cool. I cannot disagree. Our crew is just there for FINA by the way, we’re doing a bunch of work with FINA. We should have mentioned that to you before we started. Which of the Olympic sports is your favorite to watch as a fan?

[00:32:45] Sarah Hirshland: You can’t ask me that question. That’s like saying which is your favorite child.

[00:32:50] AJ Maestas: I know no chance. There’s no chance?

[00:32:53] Sarah Hirshland: I’ll go back to Tokyo and say one of the things I had the most fun learning about was sport climbing. Um, you know, I [00:33:00] grew up in Colorado in the mountains. And so the concept of mountain climbing has been something that has been a known quantity to me my whole life. Although I am not a mountain climber, but watching sport climbing and how that sport has sort of translated the notion of rock climbing or mountain climbing into the competitive environment and added a layer of strategy.

That’s fascinating to me as a golfer myself, it is the most comparable to golf in the combination of mental strategy. And then the need to physically figure out how to get your body to execute against that strategy. So I’m a big fan, obviously.

[00:33:33] AJ Maestas: I didn’t know that you were from Colorado. I guess this is a homecoming then.

How does a girl go from where in Colorado and how does a girl go from Colorado to Duke? That does not seem like a normal path.

[00:33:43] Sarah Hirshland: I was born in a town of 900 people at, at 9,000 feet, elevation a mining town and in Southwestern, Colorado called Silverton Colorado. I ended up in my sort of formative middle school and high school years in the suburbs of Denver and was really fortunate that somehow Duke let [00:34:00] me in.

And I went out to go to Duke. And as you know, I ended up, um, away from Colorado for about 25 years. So yes, this has been a homecoming for me and I, I absolutely love it here.

[00:34:09] AJ Maestas: It is a pretty special place. I did not know that. My father was born in Colorado. As you know, next week, I’m going to be down in the area.

So a wow, 9,000 feet and little town. Congratulations. I I’m guessing you’re a hero in your hometown.

[00:34:22] Sarah Hirshland: But I’m related to half the town. So it doesn’t really count.

[00:34:26] AJ Maestas: Hopefully less than half the town, otherwise we’re playing Russian roulette with genetics. So who would be your dinner, guests, uh, living or dead out of anyone in the world.

You could take someone out of history, but if you were to have a special dinner guest, who would you choose?

[00:34:39] Sarah Hirshland: You know, I’ll say right now, In the last couple of years, the extent to which I’ve found myself in such an interesting geopolitical climate, I was a biology major in school. I was always a science and math analytical thinker.

So I’m not a terrific student of history and certainly not of politics, but I did happen to go to the same high school as Madeleine Albright. And [00:35:00] since she passed recently, um, you can imagine my high school did a lot of celebration and it got me a little bit interested in her career. And I look back and I think now the several secretaries of state that we’ve had, um, especially those who have been women understanding better the geopolitical dynamics of the world and how history has played over time is something that’s really, really interesting to me.

So I’ll go there.

[00:35:23] AJ Maestas: Alright. I like that. That’s a good one, and a first. This is a question I ask at like our business dinners and stuff like that. Madeleine Albright is a first. So I’ll remember that. Okay. Last question. If you didn’t have to work, you know what I mean? If you were set for life financially or otherwise, if it was purely playing for fun, how would you spend your time?

Would you still be working in sports business and maybe reveal to us some of the hobbies or plans in the back of your mind for retirement?

[00:35:49] Sarah Hirshland: Let’s assume that I had the ability to be a philanthropist. I grew up the child of entrepreneurs and self-employed parents. And so there’s a bit of a [00:36:00] spirit in me around small business.

And so I think probably what I would do would be to find small businesses in local communities that I could really help both with a little bit of dollars and a little bit of sort of strategic thought and planning. I just really believe in, in small grassroots businesses. So would that be in sport?

Probably some of them. Sport is such a fragmented world. And I think the community aspects of sport for sport’s sake are dwindling because municipalities just aren’t doing as much of it now. Schools certainly aren’t doing as much of it. So that’s probably where I’d go

[00:36:32] AJ Maestas: Really cool. What was that family business? If you don’t mind me asking

[00:36:35] Sarah Hirshland: My father owned a Chevron gas station and an auto parts store and, uh, at a service station, so I grew up pumping gas and running the cash register.

[00:36:45] AJ Maestas: I love it. That’s cool. I I’m sure there was some grit and some formative moments in there.

[00:36:50] Sarah Hirshland: There was a lot of dirt that’s for sure.

[00:36:52] AJ Maestas: Yeah, I can picture it in this little town in the mountains of Colorado. Very cool. Well, you’re such an impressive lady, Sarah, and I’m so glad you’re sitting in the [00:37:00] seat that you are. These are, as we discussed at length here, the Olympics are something that has an intent that goes beyond dollars and cents in the sports business and everything.

So I’m glad someone of your talent and skill is here working in the not-for-profit world.

[00:37:11] Sarah Hirshland: Wow. That’s very nice of you to say, AJ, it’s great to see you and great to be with you. And again, congratulations on all your success and all the good work Navigate’s doing.

[00:37:20] AJ Maestas: Well, thank you for saying that. It’s fun.

We’re very lucky to get to do things we love and call it a job. So, yeah. Thank you so, so much for joining. For folks who are listening, if you have any questions or comments for Sarah or beyond, just reach out to us. My personal email’s AJ@NVGT.COM and you can also connect with us on my personal LinkedIn page or the Navigate page.

I know she’s the kind of lady that would follow up if you have something that makes sense for her. Again, this is AJ Maestas with Navigate joined by Sarah Hirshland, thank you for joining us on Navigating Sports Business.[00:38:00] .

[00:38:03] Sarah Hirshland: Thanks AJ.