Podcast Alert: Kim Pegula – PSE

Transcript

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Kim Pegula: [00:00:00] They don’t tell you how to do it, right. And they don’t give you a book. They kind of leave it for you to figure it out on your own. But I just realized after a few years that we own the team, but we never really took ownership of the team. So how do we want to reflect our ownership in the team and the organizations that way?

And how do we want to build it with our set of values and the things that we feel are important.

AJ Maestas: Hello, and welcome to the Navigating Sports Business podcast. I’m your host AJ Maestas, founder of Navigate a data-driven consulting firm, guiding major strategies and decisions in sports. We [00:01:00] started this podcast, hoping to share the interesting stories and experiences of the amazing people we get to work with it.

And even though they’re visionaries and famous in many instances, their true stories aren’t often heard since they’re not on the playing field. Our hope is you get to know them better and learn from them as we have.

I’m excited to be joined this week by Kim Pegula Co-Owner and President of the Buffalo Bills and Sabers and CEO of Pegula Sports and Entertainment. How are you doing today?

Kim Pegula: Oh, I’m doing great. I’m down here in sunny Florida, and it’s a Friday, so it’s going good.

AJ Maestas: Oh, well, happy Friday and a good for you.

I’m glad you’re in a safe and healthy, beautiful climate. I’m in Scottsdale Arizona. So, I have a little bit of the same benefits of the outdoors. Well, I hope you don’t mind me just leaping right in, but this was such a special year for Bill’s fans. What an unbelievable run we were pulling for you, by the way. No question we were.

I’d love to have your perspective as though, are you a fan? Are [00:02:00] you hanging on the edge of your seat? I’d love to know what it meant to you personally.

Kim Pegula: Oh, my goodness. Well, first of all, it was just fun. It was just a fun season when you were having that on-field success. Certainly, being able to enjoy it.

And I don’t think I probably didn’t enjoy it enough while it was fun. As many people know, I get very anxious during our games. So, it doesn’t matter what our record is, I’m one of these pacers, anxious, anxious fans. So, I do a little, like I said a lot of anxiety before the game, during the game, but I would say it was such a fun year and it was fun to see the growth of our team.

It was fun to see the impact that it really had on our community, Tara and I, when we got into sports and we started with the Sabers in hockey, I think people used to say like, why are you spending all this money on sports? Like, because we donated funds to build a hockey rink at Penn state. We’d bought the hockey team, then the Bills.

There are a lot of things going on in our world that could use a lot of additional resources [00:03:00] and focus on. So why, why spend it all on sports? And I would say to him, I was like because I think sports is such a fabric that really connects our whole everyone together. I see you don’t have to be a fan of the bills.

I said, but your neighbor, you can still feel the joy. I said what it brings to a community, you know, I know we didn’t know we had didn’t have to tailgate this year, but when I’ve been at tailgates, you had football games and you saw the family and the friends like together, and even this season one, it was at home, right?

Like you still could feel in our community what the team did, the success the team had, especially in a really rough, challenging year. So, it was a lot of fun and very inspiring. And I know it’s meant so much to our community. Being able to be a part of this winning season that.

AJ Maestas: I think we all know there are a lot of passionate sports fans in Buffalo and even the region of the state of New York.

And that is a real gift and a tough year, but oh, so cruel that they didn’t get to sit in the stadium. I mean, can you [00:04:00] imagine the atmosphere this year?

Kim Pegula: Yes. Yes. For sure. We were fortunate to have two of our playoff games being able to host at least a partial amount of fans, but certainly not the same that it was.

So, listen, we knew that at some point the season was going to end and that there’ll be another season. And another one after that, I don’t think anyone felt that this was a kind of a one-and-done that this was just a flash in the pan year. It took a while to get us to where we were this season. And so, I think people would still have a lot of confidence that going into next year.

Hopefully, more fans back even the season after that, that we’re really building on something and it’s going to be some long-term success that there’ll be able to enjoy in the future.

AJ Maestas: Yeah, it does look that way. Right. You’ve got a franchise-type quarterback, right. And Josh Allen, and you can see the momentum and we’ve had to and thank you again for working with us.

We’re very grateful that we have gotten to know some of your team with Ron and Dan and John and the team there and looking into that future. So, I hope it’s okay to publicly talk about this, but you have plans for a new [00:05:00] stadium, right? You have a plan for yeah. A lot of things that takes the team into the next.

Yeah. Do you mind sharing a little bit about what and when we can expect to see these things?

Kim Pegula: Yeah, I wish I could say more. I don’t have a whole lot of details. As, as you know, our stadium is 50 years old. We have a couple of years left on our lease. So obviously we’re not going to be able to get anything done within the two years.

So, we’ll need to work on extending that. And then really, we’ve been working as you know, behind the scenes doing feasibilities studies. Doing our own research on where on location and what the possibility is, but truly this will have to be a partnership as it usually is between our, the state, as us in our community.

And so how that evolves that’s yet to be seen. And we still have not had those formal discussions with the state. So, hoping to do. Sooner than later, but I will say, listen, no matter what happens, whether it’s a very large renovation, whether it’s a new stadium wherever it is, Bill’s fans can expect it to be very reflective of our community.

I know that’s [00:06:00] one thing that’s important to, Terry and myself. You know, we’re not going to have a brand-new stadium that looks like, you know, what they have in Vegas or even, you know, out in LA that’s not who we are as a community and our community. It takes a great amount of pride in having that work ethic and blue-collar, white-collar mentality.

And I think that’s what I think our fans deserve. Certainly, a state-of-the-art and up-to-date and being able to enjoy the success of our team. Integrate environment that’s has all the bells and whistles, but at the same time, it feels like it’s home, you know, home to them. And we even have people that still, some of them still refer to it as the Ralph right.

App as whatever it’s called after Mr. Wilson, but they do love to come to the game and we have such a passionate fan base at our stadium with the tailgating, I think because of the facility, as old as it is itself. Itself to having that great experience of being able to be, feel like you’re part of the game and part of the team where the sight lines and things [00:07:00] like that.

So obviously a lot of upgrades that could happen, but we don’t want to lose that feeling though either. So, like I said, this would be the biggest, impactful thing that has happened in Western New York for a really long time. So, it’s going to take a lot of hands-on deck. Like I said, we are running out of time.

So, a lot of this stuff will, you know, start really snowballing really quickly in the next year, this year, for sure.

AJ Maestas: You’ll hate this question. But years ago, a long time ago, before you owned the team, we had looked at Toronto as a market with the NFL toward its, you know, its eye toward global growth and things along those lines, it must be in some ways tempting there’s this financial center, this incredible marketplace, you know, 75 miles away as the Crow flies and plenty of Canadian fans, right.

That comes down for games, I assume. Is it safe to say you’re not leaving Buffalo and if not, is there anything that you can do with, or in conjunction with Toronto?

Kim Pegula: Oh definitely. You know, listen, that is one of our organizational goals over the next five years is to [00:08:00] grow our presence in Toronto, in Southern Ontario.

Toronto is part of our DNA as allowed by the NFL and for us to ignore the 7-8 million people that really, that encompasses would not be the right thing for us to do so. No, we definitely have our eyes on Toronto, Southern Ontario. I think what happened last time when that deal like I said before, we bought the team, and they went up there to play a game.

I think people viewed that as a moneymaker, right. It was just like a transactional thing just to do something. And then when the experience, wasn’t great. From what I hear, I wasn’t able to go to any of them. So, I’m just giving you hearsay, but the experience wasn’t all that great. Of course, you know, I don’t think there was a lot of wins when, when they went and played there in Toronto, didn’t help either.

And then we bought the team, we pulled out knowing that Toronto was a very sensitive subject, so we kind of just hold out. And it kind of left it at that. So, this time around though, I think that we, need to really embrace Canada, Toronto [00:09:00] area. We need to have a lot of grassroots, right? We need to make them feel like bringing them into our bigger network of a family instead of using them to host a game or whatever.

And I think that’s really key the intentions of how we go about looking at our Canadian neighbors. Listen, my parents are Canadian, so I’m adopted, but my adopted parents are Canadian. My grandparents lived in St. Catherine’s and Mississauga have aunts and uncles that live in London, Ontario. So, Canada was my second home.

So, I’m happy to get back up there. We’re looking at new content that specifically for Canada, as you know, we’ve got border issues, we’ve got, you know, TV rights issues. So, you got a lot of other things going on, but we’re just focusing on more content. Canadian focus as well. We’re doing some community relations, introducing the game to younger, groups of kids.

So, we want to be intentional this time around and really grow our presence there. Instead of just using it as a transaction, to just show up and say, Hey, we’re here. We [00:10:00] feel you’ll go a long way, but definitely our eyes are, are to the north of us and know that that’s a huge growth area.

AJ Maestas: Oh, I’m glad to hear that because I remember the grade from those games was generally negative.

I was personally surprised. I think a lot of people were, you would just think the population, and I know there’s a very successful Canadian league already. Right. And one of my recent guests, if you stayed in touch in any way with Tod Lewiki, he was with me last week on this. You know, he shared this a great amount of respect for

Kim Pegula: How is Tod doing?

AJ Maestas: He’s doing really, really good. I think, you know, he had lived in Seattle before this most recent stint when he was at the Seahawks and he’s a happy, positive person and he’s building a really diverse, progressive, you know, modern franchise, you know, with talent and what have you.

And they’re having crazy success. So, we’ve done some work for them and the launch of the team. And without revealing too much detail, they’re going to be top three in the NHL and about every metric you can name. So how about that? A new franchise in what most people would say is not a natural hockey market and.

Kim Pegula: Listen, no, Todd is great.

[00:11:00] Obviously when he was at the league, it got to know him really well. And you know, I am jealous to be able to start from the ground up in a franchise. I think that that’s amazing. When we came in, we were kind of given, you know, kind of what was there and then you’re trying to make changes and it takes longer than you plan.

But being able to build it from the ground up. So as long as he does not win the Stanley cup in his first year, okay. I will be rooting for his success. Although just as long as he doesn’t win that Stanley cup in the first year, Vegas was closed. And I was really disappointed. I was like, you have to be in the league for at least 40 or 50 years.

Like we are to even get, to be able to even get there. So, I keep telling them, you gotta pay your dues. And I wished him all the success. So, he’s a great guy.

AJ Maestas: He is a really good person, win or lose. They’re going to have unbelievable success. Their building is something really cool to look into and the effort money, and what they had to do there.

And they think they have an NBA team coming to Seattle on the heels of that, you know, puck dropping, you know, this next year. Even if they don’t win, they’re going to be a wild success. But you know, these draft rules, I mean, you know, for example, what happened in Vegas, [00:12:00] it’s not crazy to think that they’re going to be great on the ice, right.

From the get-go. That is very possible. Just kind of, I’m sure it’s a little unfair, right? For your living in Buffalo, you’re thinking, what is this? I get it from the league perspective. You want that success, you know, as you grow, but it’s tough. I mean, so you’re Canadian. Does that make your first level?

You know, what if people ask me that all the time, like which one do you love that? Or hockey or football. And I tell them, it’s like your children, right? And you’re when you have kids and I’ve got three of them. None of them are the same. None of them are perfect. If I could take one thing from one child and put it together with this, something else from this child, like I could make a perfect kid.

Right. But like, it doesn’t work that way. So, there are different, but you love them equally. Right? They each have their challenges, there positives, the negative. What I say, is it my first love? I think it’s what I was introduced to first. Right? So, my dad, as I said, my adopted dad being from Canada and it was always a hockey fan.

We grew up in Rochester, the Rochester Americans [00:13:00] are the team that our AHL team that we own now, that’s where I went to watch hockey. So, yes, it was certainly the game and the sport that I connected with at a very early age though. I never played, but it was always kind of, like I said, part of our family outings and things we talked about.

So, and then football, you know, was called the, you know, like I said, hockey kind of was our little. Go to sport, but football was the national sport and having two brothers also was one of those things where you just back that I laid out, I know I’m saying my age, but back then we only had three channels.

Right? So, there was not the 600 or some 700 channels we have now there are only three. And so, when you have two brothers and a father who wants to watch Sunday night football, you know, so growing up, I’m embarrassed to admit growing up, I was probably more of a Cowboys fan than anything, but what I say though is I was a bandwagon.

That’s why I’m a bandwagon fan. Growing up, whatever team was winning that had the popularity. You know, I [00:14:00] just jumped from team to team and it just seemed like the Cowboys and in my age, time was when I saw them a lot. So, I became a fan. So whatever team was winning that’s who I was a fan of.

I appreciate you admitting it.

And, you know, they always say, it’s not the first mistake we make. It’s the second one. You, you didn’t double down on that. Come to

Kim Pegula: good for years, it was much cheaper being a Cowboys fan though, I would say.

AJ Maestas: Yeah, it depends. When you’re talking to eighties and nineties here, I’m just guessing. And they say it’s America’s team, but you’d be amazed if you could see the data, you know, like the Lakers have more national following it’s Texas pride.

I think. Yeah, pretty amazing organization. So, it’s tough to deny that reminds me, by the way, you mentioned you grew up watching the Rochester Americans, you own them now, Rochester, Nighthawks lacrosse. You own them as well. The Buffalo bandit’s lacrosse. You own them as well. Is there anything I’m missing because this is quite a collection of sports toys that you’ve purchased.

Kim Pegula: And I would say some of them kind of were a package [00:15:00] deal. Some of them obviously are in the arenas that we already operate out of. So, some of it was just a matter of the next development process. Obviously with hockey being the Rochester America’s AHL team is just really so close together. And when we bought the sabers, our AHL team was actually in Portland, Maine.

And so just having the affiliation from being from Western New York and growing up in Rochester, it was hard to develop your players when they’re in Maine and you have to call one up or not. So, we just thought we should bring the two franchises back together again. And then the badness were also operating.

Within the KeyBank center now in Buffalo. So that was just an easy seamless transaction to be able to do that. And it actually, you know, it’s a much younger family. And so, it helped us really get some insight too and help grow, even though it’s not necessarily hockey, it was lacrosse, but still having understanding of, of that fan base of being able to offer them a different product in that younger [00:16:00] demographic group was nice.

You know, it was nice to have. I have a lot of help and support. So, the amount of teams shouldn’t scare anyone. I’m not involved in all of them and just hire capable people that are able to oversee these franchises.

AJ Maestas: It’s modest of you to say that, but you know, there aren’t a lot of sports organizations that have aggregated that.

And then when you look at the size of your market, it’s quite a risk because everything we just discussed is generally small market, but I love that trend. We work with the San Jose sharks when they were moving their minor league club near them. And it makes so much sense. There’s cross-selling opportunities, the athletes, the players.

You know, you’ve got this business here at the NHL and NFL level, and it’s tough to concentrate on all of it. And by the way, you’re the first female president in the NHL and NFL history. You mentioned earlier. Go ahead. I’m sorry.

Kim Pegula: I, as a joke I have with my, husband that I got demoted from, I went from, you know, just being an owner and I Enjoy you go to the game; you get all the parks that ownership for you. But [00:17:00] now I, then I got to be present and now I have to do all the work and my husband gets to only just be the owner and just gets all the perks. But now I have to do all the work. So, we always joke that it was maybe more of a demotion, but I, enjoy it.

I probably enjoyed a little bit too much. Sometimes I think my staff is like, why does she want to know like this stuff? But I truly enjoy it. And I find it fascinating. And I’m realizing that I have still so much to learn now, but I just really enjoy joining this journey.

AJ Maestas: Yeah. I’m glad to hear you say all that.

I mean, if you’re not passionate about it and you’re not involved, I think I’ve seen a pretty consistent pattern and, you know, just about everyone. You can name it. There’s a pretty consistent pattern that is reflective of leadership. I don’t want it to be that way. I used to think that you could culturally grow it from the bottom up and things along those lines, but I don’t believe that anymore.

You know, someone sets that tone. And so, I think it’s good you’re involved, and a passionate fan. I think it matters. I think it ends up being reflected and, and fans can feel and know that. They know if someone’s seriously [00:18:00] invested or not. So, I might, might be a demotion as far as having to roll up your sleeves and get dirty in there and work.

But I think the organization has better for it.

Kim Pegula: And listen, I also have said this on different discussions that I’ve had with folks that, you know, w when you come and you buy a team and, you know, obviously you’ve had success in some other measures. To be able to have the dollars or the resources to buy a team at this level, but they don’t tell you how to do it.

Right. And they don’t give you books. They don’t tell you how to do it. They kind of leave it for you to figure it out on your own. And I think most owners do is they hire people, and you say, okay, that’s your job. You do it. And keep me up to date. But I found, especially on the bill side where, where there was just one owner for a really long time that I just realized after a few years.

I use the word, you know, we own the team, but we never really took ownership of the team. So how do we want to reflect our ownership in the team and the organizations that we have and how do we want to build it with, you know, our [00:19:00] set of values and the things that we feel are important. So, it’s been a new learning experience for me.

I’m still, like I said, I’m still learning a lot of mistakes. Still a lot of things to get right. But that’s why I like being involved because I feel like at the end of the day for us, this is a family legacy and building it into the way, just, you know, we were talking about, about Todd being able to build that franchise from the ground up.

It’s harder when you, when you kind of come into it already. But that’s what, you know, I think my involvement really helps our family just really shaped the organization into more of how we want it to be, but it takes a lot longer than I thought it was a lot harder than I thought I got to admit.

AJ Maestas: Heck of a legacy there.

You know, I mean, he was the only owner in the history of the franchise. Everything had his fingerprints on it, right. And I can only imagine that’s right. It’s one of those hurdles, you know, in innovation. I can only imagine that there’s no question. And you don’t want to radically quickly change.

Right. That makes people uncomfortable. [00:20:00] And I appreciate your kind of indicating you’re learning every day. You know, it’s those that have the strongest conviction that they know what to do that are at most at risk of error or bias. It’s almost too good to be true. That is a pretty well-proven fact that again, the greater confidence we have, that we know what we’re doing.

The more likely we are to have a blind spot, that curiosity and desire to know more and to realize that there are things you don’t know. I just read two really good books on this. There was a one is Thinking and Rethinking, I believe. And the other one was Talking to Strangers. That’s a Malcolm Gladwell one.

It’s a really easy read. Yeah. But they go pretty deep in the books and sharing good research and good anecdotal stories where, you know, those people with great confidence on certain subjects. So, yeah. I’m glad you did. I’m glad you did take time to get engaged. Imagine if you had implemented actions in day one, versus what you know today, certainly there could be differences, right?

Kim Pegula: Of course. Definitely, sometimes you don’t know what you don’t know. And other times, you know, in hindsight, you wish you could change things, but if it didn’t happen, then you know, maybe you’re not at the place you are now. So, I always have [00:21:00] this attitude that the glass is half full, but also there was a reason for everything.

It’s sometimes a lot of youth in isms, I can remember from my parents that, you know, every failure is something to be learned. And even now going back and I cringe at some of the things either I thought or decisions I made, but like, wasn’t, I’m like if I didn’t actually fail, then I wouldn’t be in the situation I am now.

So, I’ll always try to keep a positive attitude about it.

AJ Maestas: We have this dinner question we ask when we’re hosting our clients, that’s basically talking about people’s sort of greatest achievement and we never say anything about what led to it, but the story is almost always follows that pattern of the hero’s journey, where they talk about their greatest challenges in life.

And then this was the sort of bounce back or rebound for them. So, I don’t know if that. Human nature to fit that narrative, or if it’s just the truth that our greatest moments are born out of these dips or lowest moments in our life. But I love that. I appreciate you saying that you, you mentioned Terry, your husband and you know that he gets to be the owner now.

I couldn’t help, but notice I saw in your history [00:22:00] that you were planning to go to Alaska when the two of you met one another, just because I’m from Alaska and I need to know, what were you doing? What were you thinking?

Kim Pegula: Well, so someone had told us that. So, my girlfriend and I were just graduating, we didn’t have a job from college. And someone told us that they made a lot of money in Alaska at a canning factory.

Now why on earth that we thought that that would be a cool thing to do, but we’re like, okay, well maybe if we work through summer and then we can go do what we want to do. So, my parents, allowed me to think that that could happen, but I think they probably knew push comes to shove, I probably wasn’t going to pull that trigger.

So, yes, I was fortunate enough. I was interviewing for a restaurant for a job for the summer where Terry was there at lunch with some of, he at that time, he owned his own business and, and I didn’t get the job then actually, I didn’t see Terry for a while, but then you got to remember now back then we’ve been married, my goodness. We’ll be married 28 years.

We didn’t have cell phones back then. Right. So, it’s not the same. As dating these days. So, so it didn’t [00:23:00] reconnect with him, but you know, he’s, he’s 18 years older than me. I was 21 and you think back my kids, my oldest is 27, 24, and 21. So now I’m like, oh my gosh, what was I doing?

But obviously, it all worked out. And like I said, it’s been great. And he’s been such a partner for myself. And he has been the biggest advocate for me personally, but also to the outside world, just by the support that he shows.

AJ Maestas: That age separation isn’t so unusual anymore, but I can,

Kim Pegula: I know like, well, we, we joked because back then, okay.

Not only being Asian and not, and then the age difference now it’s like popular, it is a thing to do my husband and I were like, hey, we have started that trend, you know, because I was laughing cause Jeff Laurie owns the Eagles. He’s married to a Chinese American, I believe Chris Johnson or the jets, his wife is Asian.

I forgot there’s another one. And. I’m [00:24:00] laughing that you know, that Terry and I started this really cool trend. So…

AJ Maestas: Get on board everybody. Everybody is doing it.

Kim Pegula: Right? I mean, that’s actually the advice that I give people, you know, if there’s somebody else who’s looking for a girlfriend and whatever and older, I was like, oh, you got to find an Asian.

That’s what my husband said. He’s got to find an Asian girl. So, they like, you know, they’re good. You don’t, you don’t have to worry, like, just find one of them. You know you’ll be set. So, it’s, it’s a joke that we have.

AJ Maestas: I love that. Well, I love that. Well, clearly, it’s working for some of these guys, right?

No question. What, did your parents think, by the way, you mentioned you were adopted and raised in Canada?

Kim Pegula: Oh, my goodness. I think, you know, my parents have been great. They, you know, obviously had a lot of concerns I get you’re talking, you know, 30 years ago, by the time when, since we were dating. And so, divorce was certainly on the horizon, but it wasn’t maybe as easy as much as it is now, but he had two kids divorced. And so, my parents were just like, ah, my parents have been married for like 60 years [00:25:00] now, but you know, my parents have one, like, listen to. Tell you what I think, say my piece. And then after that, it’s up to you. So there, they were good about it.

And now, of course, you know, my dad is great. They love Terry and obviously the grandkids and I love saying, see, I told you so, so even to your parents, I still enjoy being able to say, I told you it’s going to work out.

AJ Maestas: 27 years, 21-year-old woman. It might’ve been a little more wise than anybody thought at the time.

Cause you’ve, you’ve gone 5, 6, 7 times the length of the average marriage.

And congratulations on that. I don’t mean to get too personal by the way. So only if you’re comfortable, but I would love to know how it is that you came to the U. S. As an adopted. You were age 5, I understand that that’s not the traditional.

Kim Pegula: Well, actually I think I was age five. Actually, so I was adopted by the Canadian parents that I I’ve been talking about that lived in Rochester, New York.

And I was adopted when I was five. They [00:26:00] had two boys previously. They just felt this desire to adopt someone from a different country and had. I think a friend or a neighbor that had gone through this adoption agency that I went through and adopted me. I actually had the opportunity just like had a great upbringing.

I had this opportunity to actually now I think it’s been two years ago where I was able to go back to Korea. And for the first time took the whole family, took the kids, took my dad, my mom wasn’t able to make the trip but took my dad. And we all went to Korea. We went back, we saw the orphanage where I was raised in.

And I found some out some new, fascinating facts that I never knew despite all that, obviously I knew I was adopted, but so one of the things I didn’t know was that I thought I grew up in this orphanage and the actual building, the orphanage I was in wasn’t there anymore. There was another building but in the same location.

So, I was able to actually there’ll be, and there was one guy there that. Was there when I was there, believe it or not at the same [00:27:00] orphanage, that was one by the same company. And I realized that I was only there for like five or six months. I thought I grew up there. I thought I was there. I don’t know why I thought I was left at the doorstep of the police station when I was a baby, but I wasn’t, I was left when I was like probably maybe four years old.

So, then that police station then knew of this orphanage. And so, they, they gave the me over to the orphanage to take care of, because I didn’t have any information on me, and I was older. I was four. So, they just guess my age and they guess my birthday and they guess my name. Right. So, I was like, oh, and actually I had turned 50 and I was like, Maybe I’m not 50 yet.

Maybe I’m like 48. I was really, I was trying to really milk it. I was like, but yeah, so I didn’t realize, that was just something new that I just realized this late in life that I was adopted for sure. And I was five when my parents brought me over here, but my life before that I actually had a [00:28:00] life through the age of probably four or five, whatever, before I was then going into the orphanage.

And I was only in the orphanage, not long because my parents ended up adopting me and it just long enough to go through the paperwork. I guess it was somewhat of a common occurrence for the police to get these abandoned children. So, they bring them over to the orphanage, but they don’t allow the orphanage to do anything with them just in case the parents or somebody shows up like maybe the kid was lost and it truly wasn’t something.

So, you had to be in the orphanage for, I think at least three months before any type of adoption at the time. So yeah, it was really interesting to go over there too kind of. And I know this will sound really strange, but I went over there, and you know, we’re just, you know, wasn’t Seoul and walking around the city, I’ve never been anywhere where everybody looked like.

Like it was, it was, it was strange. Like I’m used to be different diverse or however, you know, [00:29:00] politically correct when we say it these days and it never bothered me when I was over there. It just was a different feeling. I’ve never been where everywhere I turned, I was like, oh my gosh. Korea. And they’re all, like, they all look like me and it was my friend who was, went with us as well, who was kind of now the diverse person.

Right? Like now she’s the one that looked different. Like now she was in among people that didn’t look like her. So, it was an interesting dynamic that I just, I wasn’t expecting going over.

AJ Maestas: I’ve been in a few situations like that. And you just don’t know until you’ve experienced it. Right? Because then it becomes blatantly obvious.

And I think it’s the reverse that happens to most people. Most people, you picture a well-traveled Caucasian American that goes to a country and realizes everyone’s looking at them because they’re white. And for the first time ever they realize what it’s like to stick out. Of course, it’s mostly in a positive way, but you know what it’s like to be noticeably different every time you walk in a room or a restaurant that’s amazing.

Do you know your biological parents by the way? Do you know what happened?

Kim Pegula: Yeah. No, because it was, there was no record of anything. So yeah, there wasn’t any information. Lots with [00:30:00] me. So, like I said, that’s why for me to be put in the orphanage, I had to have a name. So, they just kind of gave me a name.

It’s not canvas, not the one. My, my adoptive parents gave me, but, but it’s been fact then, you know, it was a naked someone, you had to have a name, so they just made up the name and the birthday guessing on the age. So no, I’ve got no way of really knowing and understanding what happened. But when I was talking to the counselor at the orphan.

They said that many times that’s back then. And when I was in my age there, that that was a common occurrence, that there was a lot of poverty. There was a lot of social issues that was happening. And, you know, a lot of people did end up getting kind of abandoned just because they couldn’t support kids or didn’t have a job, whether it’s the breadwinner, you know, passed away or something like that.

Yeah. I don’t know how I would ever do that. And honestly, I just think it’s, you know, it’s a 12-hour flight. It’s so far away from what I grew up with and I had such amazing adoptive parents and brothers and a [00:31:00] whole life. You know what I like to know who they were, sure. I don’t know how that would all fit in.

Like I don’t think I missed out on anything. And probably, you know, at the end of the day, if I really think about it, probably a huge thank you, right? Like where would my life be? If that sacrifice hadn’t been made, like I said, it just path in life, you just never know, but it was such a great experience to be able to go back there and share it with my family.

AJ Maestas: Well, imagine if they could see you now, right. Imagine that same line from earlier. I mean, who’s to say what could seem like a tragic time. I’m sure it was gut wrenching and an unbelievably difficult. Maybe they gave you the gift of a lifetime. Yeah, sure. It looks like they did.

Kim Pegula: That’s how I view it. Yeah.

AJ Maestas: Yeah. Well, that time was difficult in Korea. I think the modern image of Korea is tech-forward. You know, people think of the Samsungs of the world or what have you, and this thriving, booming economy. And you juxtapose that because of a political border and a line that leads to North [00:32:00] Korea and their regression economically and otherwise, but the data just to be a data nerd for a second.

Cause that’s what we do at Navigate. The North Korean economy was super competitive with South Korea and exceeded it for many, many years, even as a communist, you know, sort of nation up until just 20 or 30 years ago. I mean, this is a recent thing that whether you consider it to be the free markets or whatever the success is, that has been extraordinary for South Korea, it is really just a generational thing.

Turn back that clock and they’re similar GDP per capita sort of poverty. It’s just an image that for those that are well-traveled and even throughout Asia, wouldn’t be able to exact, you know, just intuitively throw a switch and say, this is what Seoul, Korea was like. At that time, it could have been absolute abject poverty and they were unable to care for you.

Kim Pegula: Yup. Yup.

So, I’m hoping to go back there again. I think it’s one of those cities where try to cram as much as you can, but you don’t really get to the really relaxed and enjoy it. And I think that’s probably what I did. I was trying to cram so much into the short time I was there. So, I’m hoping to [00:33:00] go back there again and do it in a more relaxed way and enjoy it in my own timeframe.

My daughter, I actually, one of the reasons I went there, my oldest daughter that plays on the women’s tour, tennis tour, she was playing a tournament there. So, you know, all the tournaments got messed up. So, I said, well, if you go back and play that tournament, like, you know, I’d probably put that on my calendar.

AJ Maestas: Yeah. We were all watching Jessica make it to the quarterfinals of the Australian open by the way. Tell me about your experience as a mother watching your daughter get this close.

Kim Pegula: Yeah, I hate to admit it or what I do with tennis because it’s not a team sport as you know, I get very anxious, like I said, with a team, but when one is tennis and it’s your daughter, you can’t blame the offense.

You can’t blame the defense. You can only blame her. You know you can only blame her. So, I like to follow like online, like the scores. And then I like to watch the match after. I know that sounds really, really weird., but yeah, it is. It just is. So, for me my husband now, he’s like he’s for fast-forwarding rewinding.

I mean, he’s like, he’s like [00:34:00] into it, but no, so, so proud of her because like, as she’s 27 years old, you know, it’s been a long journey for her. She’s played tennis shoes. She was seven years old. As a family, she was born in Buffalo, we then moved to Pittsburgh, then we moved to Hilton Head, South Carolina, and then to Florida, and the move from Hilton Head, South Carolina, and Florida.

We’re both late for her training and her tennis. So obviously a lot of sacrifices that our whole family made. But she’s been the one to do something. Like playing tennis, hitting balls, playing tennis, and working what the athletes do from the age of seven. I mean, for 20 years, you know, I give her a ton of credit to be that passionate and that committed to something could follow through.

We always felt everyone had done a lot of this stuff that she had. The skill is just, you know, as you know, that’s not sometimes everything right. You got to have skill. You got to have heart, you got to have the mental capacity. You got to have research. Like you got to have the physical, like, there’s just so much to it.

We [00:35:00] knew she had this skill but seeing all the other things kind of come together yeah. I’m really so happy.

AJ Maestas: Where did the drive come from? Do you sense that you pushed or that she…

Kim Pegula: Well, you know what, my husband, Terry, he likes to say that she has this, he calls her the Eastern European gene. He would tell her he was.

His grandmother at the age of 12, came to Ellis Island from the Czech Republic by herself. And it, you know, he grew up in the Scranton, Pennsylvania area, but the only reason he grew up there was cause his great-grandmother that’s where the bus stopped. Like she didn’t have any money. She was 12 years old.

She didn’t know where she was supposed to go. And that’s where like as far as go. Yeah. Yeah, she was by herself. As far as she could go. So, he likes to say that she’s got that gene that drive and willingness and that tough exterior to just battle through whether it’s injuries, practices, you know, the losses, the travel, all of that.

So, I like to think, you [00:36:00] know, that she got some of her athletic ability from me, but, but I doubt it. I doubt it. So, I know like I’m on your show and with the profile, you know, buying both the hockey and the football team and the success. Terry. And I, we were both were never in that position like that, that has only been a recent position.

And our kids have always known us as mom and dad. And while it will gladly admit that, you know, we we’ve had a very good life and so have our kids grown up in it and had the blessings of a lot that most people don’t get. But we weren’t always at this level, like, you know, A lot of lean years, there was a lot of work when I met Terry a long time ago, you know, there was eight employees that he had.

He owned his own business, like eight employees and myself. I know people see me now, like, and think it’s the finished product, but my kids have seen, and they’ve been around us when we were the same person, but our circumstances were different. So, I think that helps keep, keep them grounded and keep them [00:37:00] humble.

Just knowing we’re still the same mom and dad, whether or not we own a team or we don’t.

AJ Maestas: You’re the first female president in both the NFL and NHL history. There must be experiences positive and negative. Do you mind speaking from the perspective of a woman and for every lady that’s going to listen to this podcast, I’d love to have your advice and experiences.

Kim Pegula: You know, this space, and when I say this space, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion, female empowerment, just all, all of these black lives matter. I feel like it’s really. Boomed in the last five years, you know, the awareness of it. I will say when I got into the league, that’s one of the questions that people ask me, especially in football, like, oh, are you the only female in the room?

And the ownership level and I wasn’t there there’s other ones, if you know, there’s Dee Haslam who owns a team with her husband, Sheila Hampford, whose mom just put the raise to her to run the team. There’s Carla Irsay, Charlotte Jones, there’s a lot, Gayle Benson. There’s a lot of females in the room, but for some reason, [00:38:00] the perception that there was that there wasn’t, but I will say the league.

Probably in the last five years though have added a lot of leaders in diverse positions as well. So, promoting whether it’s our chief diversity officer, whether it’s people just been a lot of growth in that area. So, I would say it’s a lot more positive than I had originally thought. Inside the room though. Certainly, I mean, listen, especially football, it’s a very generational ownership.

There’s not a lot of owners that are corporate are coming in and out and private equity is and owning them, you know, it’s very family oriented. So, I think the ebbs and flows goes. So certainly, though there is, I think more of a tradition of the male bonding because traditionally. Cause like I said, it’s been handed down from son to son in some cases, or it’s very generational.

I don’t know if it’s by birth, but as more of their daughters are getting them, that’s where you see some great progress. A lot of daughters are now more involved. I’m hoping, you know, I’ve got two daughters and a son I’m hoping that they started getting involved. So, you’re starting to see [00:39:00] that transition from an ownership standpoint, but sure.

I think the biggest thing for me in that room is I think it’s on myself. You see Jerry Jones and you’re like, oh, well I can’t go talk to him or go talk to like males. And I think that’s, it’s not anything that they do because they are very welcoming. I think it’s a lot of times it’s upon ourselves, right?

To have that confidence and feel like we’re good enough to be able to be in that same room at that same level. And I think that’s something I know I’ve been learning over the last few years and that I’ve working on. I’m great at if there’s another female, it’s great. Like, hey, we connect right away and you can bond or do whatever, but being intentional to not forget that, you know, building those relationships with the guys, with the dudes in the room is also important, but that’s that’s also on me.

AJ Maestas: You know, I’ve heard a lot of women leaders that, you know, that have reached these high levels, refer to using men as mentors, you know, to embracing the reality of the situation. Certainly, there’s an, it may not be at an ownership level, right? That’s an, [00:40:00] a pretty elite club, but at some level, I have to assume that you felt the existence of a glass ceiling, or you felt some form of discrimination.

I mean, if you look at the front office in sports if you look at. I’ve shared this too many times on this podcast, but you know, title nine is 50 years old. So, for 50 years, as many women have been scholarship athletes at the collegiate level, you know, if you look at the funnel of where passionate and interest in sports comes from, it doesn’t make sense that there’s such a massive under-representation of women in all areas of sport for the business of sport and protect.

I don’t know if you have a solution or maybe even what you would say to a young woman, who’s starting her career in sports and the practical reality of what it’s going to take for her to be sitting in your seat, someday.

Kim Pegula: They asked me a few years ago, I could give you the same talk in the same speed. And say that we embrace it.

And I think what I’ve learned this past COVID and since George Floyd and some of the real attention that has had is, and I know people have talked about it, just the word intentional, but actually [00:41:00] following through on things. So, it’s so easy and listen, one being Asian, being a female, of course, I would want to embrace diversity of why, you know, of course, I feel like there should be opportunity for everyone and especially in the underrepresented groups.

But I didn’t really do anything about it. Right? Like, just because you think that you’re on the right side doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s enough, right. And I think that’s what I’ve learned in the past year. What are the next steps or what are the actions? And what’s the processes we can put in place and how do we become more intentional?

What I’m struggling with right now is also how do we become more intentional in the right way? Right. So, it’s easy just to say okay, our next hire is going to have to be someone diverse. Like we need to get our numbers up, but how do we become intentional, but also do what’s right.

And as you know, as a, as a business owner for the organization as a whole, it would that DEI knowing that it’s a positive for an organization, but at the same time, weighing that with other things that are going on that that’s where I [00:42:00] really struggled with that I keep working on and working at. I do have some help or, you know, trying to put together one more education awareness within our own organization.

We have formed a DEI council. Both of our heads of our HR are doing certification in DEI. So, they truly understand because I think people forget that this isn’t like. You think it’s the right thing to do. And then that’s the end of the day, like there are nuances to it. There are a people go to school.

People have PhDs in this, you know, there, there is a higher understanding and learning and a skill set that comes with this as well, and then putting into place. And we were focusing on our hiring prospects about, are we hiring the right way? What’s our process so that we can get a bigger, diverse group so that our probability of hiring is higher, but it’s still a process.

It’s still something we’re continuing to work on. Still, something that we struggle with. And like you said, especially in sports, but I think the more we talk about it and I’ve talked to a wise, which [00:43:00] is a college group for women in sports. And so, you know, I continually try to put myself out there. To get women and minorities and people just to feel that force can be welcoming for them because we certainly need it.

And I don’t think it’s the lack of skill I should say that I don’t know that it, you know, we used to use the pipeline. That’s kind of the excuse sometimes by while there are not enough people in the pipeline, so therefore we’re not hiring at this X amount. And so, I think that you know, we’ve kind of proven that that excuse doesn’t really fly anymore.

I think there is the skill is out there. How do we welcome as an industry, as a sport, as an organization that women diverse candidates want to come work for us, want to come work and football and think that because, you know, nobody wants to go to work in an industry or in an organization that they feel there’s no path for them or that they feel like they’re going to be kind of out on an island on their own.

So, I think kind of trying to understand, I think some of the feelings that people [00:44:00] have and what are they looking for and being a better representation of that is where kind of we’ve switched over.

AJ Maestas: There’s no question that diversity and inclusion is an investment and you’re hinting at some things that I’ve read before, which indicate you don’t just hire one person of color or one person of whatever diversity, you know, character type that is missing in your organization. And then everything is fixed.

It’s not a welcoming environment to them, you know, to stick out like a sore thumb or to not see others like them. So, well, hey, to wrap things up, I have a couple rapid fire questions. Okay. Okay. Excellent. All right. Where’s your favorite place to travel?

Kim Pegula: I’m going to say probably France and Italy. I know that’s two places. Cause the food is amazing.

AJ Maestas: Yeah. Like you’re talking to coastal yes, yes,

Kim Pegula: yes. Yeah. Just any place in France or Italy, I’ve just never been where the food is amazing.

AJ Maestas: and the wine. Isn’t too bad. So, good choice. Okay. You’ve probably heard of the dinner date question. You know, you can choose anyone from history.

They could be past that could be living, but if you were to choose one [00:45:00] figure to sit down for a dinner, who would you have as your dinner mate?

Kim Pegula: If you asked me this next week, maybe it’s different, but I’m going say probably cause the Abraham Lincoln, sometimes all the things we have going on politically, socially, he’s always heralded at such a great leader.

In a time for our country in such a perilous time for our country, I would just love to pick his brain on that because I think we could probably use more Abraham Lincoln’s right now.

AJ Maestas: Well said, I like that. And imagine the conviction he had, right? Because he had people on both sides. Not very happy with him.

What are your top passions or hobbies?

Kim Pegula: Anyone knows me. My top passion is probably. Candy and food. I love to bake. I bake cookies all the time during the season for many people. I love candy. I have stashes of it everywhere. I pull open the drawer. I got some here. So yeah, those are my passion and hobbies baking and eating candy.

AJ Maestas: I heard that you bake cookies on game days.

Kim Pegula: yes, yes. I bake constantly. [00:46:00]

AJ Maestas: Very cool. Yeah. Everybody wins in that situation. What is the best piece of advice you’ve ever received?

Kim Pegula: Actually, it’s probably going to be one. My kids are probably going to hate is probably actually, I didn’t receive it. I don’t even know where I heard it, but I say it all the time.

And I used to say it to my kids all the time to the point where they were it had the opposite effect when I said it, but it’s I used to say to them, if it’s meant to be it’s up to me, I think I just made up a rhyme sometime, you know, just to do it, but you know, when my kids would complain about something, I would just say, well, if it’s meant to be, then it’s up to me.

So, and I’ve kind of followed that throughout life. Like, you know, I’m not a big complainer. I don’t like people that complain a lot and then don’t have the solution, right. And so, I’ve always just tried to feel like that’s, you know, that’s just something where there’s something I want to change or there’s something that I think is wrong.

Like, you know, I can’t sit around. And take this, someone else is going to solve my problems for me. So, I don’t know. That’s the best advice I’ve gotten. I try to live with [00:47:00] given a lot.

AJ Maestas: Yeah. I like that. One of the things that we preach at work is to bring solutions, whether that’s for a client or even internally, you know, you have internal clients, we all do at some level, right?

Yep. So don’t show up at their door with a problem without a recommendation to solve it. Right. Or you’re not doing your job. There’s an element of control and the rights and expectations to do so for your kids that I think is a great lesson. Okay. This is the most important one who has the best chicken wings in Buffalo Anchor or somewhere else?

Kim Pegula: Oh, I get to say the place cause it’s near my house. So, it’s as much easily accessible at the place called Bar Bills. Yeah, it’s called Bar Bills. It’s various like two minutes from my house. So, I’m going to say there it’s the best because it’s the quickest and easiest accessibility to wings there.

So yeah, I know I’m probably going to get killed on social media for saying that.

AJ Maestas: Well, we’ll see. We’ll see who it is that’s weighing in, but did they have a licensing deal with the Buffalo Bills?

Kim Pegula: No, [00:48:00] no, it’s just Bar Bills. I don’t know where they came up with the name, but no I don’t think it has anything to do with the team itself.

AJ Maestas: So, I need to now let’s have someone from sales call them, honestly, your stories inspirational. I think that you even talking about it, I can tell you that you handled it with grace. There are a lot of people that could find themselves a victim of your circumstances or look back at that and wonder you don’t know your own birthday or your own age.

These are pretty extraordinary things. I mean, you’re a first-generation here and here you are sitting in the role you are. Leading the way, you do. I thank you for that because there’s a lot of paths you could take and it’s not easy. There’s a lot of trauma associated with being adopted, not knowing your birth parents, you know, coming to a new country, new world, new language.

So, thank you for being you and thank you for joining me today and thank you for sharing all your wisdom with everyone on this.

Kim Pegula: Well, thank you. I really enjoy talking to you. So, you know, I’m happy to come back any other time or hopefully one of these days we can be in person. Whether I’m out there your way or you out our way but appreciate all you do.

Cause I, [00:49:00] I think our industry for us in the entertainments that you’re such a big part of is really important to our country, to our culture. And so, appreciate all that you do. And in the partnership that you have with the Bills as well.

AJ Maestas: Well, again, this is AJ Maestas with Navigate joined by Pegula Sports and Entertainment at CEO and co-owner Kim Pegula

Thank you for your time, Kim. And thank you for joining us on Navigating Sports Business.

Kim Pegula: Thank you, AJ. Good to see you.

If you’d like to join the conversation, email info@nvgt.com. Or check out our website nvgt.com. I’m AJ Maestas. Join us again next week for Navigating Sports Business. [00:50:00] .